Is it worth it to change back???

[jcmseven]

Fellow Posters:

As you know, I have both a JD 3720 and a Gator XUV. I have been thinking about selling my 3720, which I really do not want to do. My wife has been "less-than-enthused" about it taking up half the garage and leaving her car outside some of the time. That said, I really like the tractor and would prefer to keep it. One problem I have is snow removal. We do get some snow here, and probably based on prior years will get more this winter. The last snowfall we had I used my Gator to plow the main service roads and dangerous areas. I prefer the tractor for the areas around the house as the boom blade I have can reach places I cannot with the Gator and it can handle the heavy piles well. (In other words, I would like to have both machines available for plowing). With the last snowfall our driveway, which approaches 25% gradient in some places, became some what packed down. It is gravel, so I went out with the blade and landscape rake. I, literally, made it to the top and slid sideways for about 60' down the hill. I only stopped by burying the boom blade and LR and achoring myself until the slide stopped. I had no warning. The tractor climbed fine until, within two seconds or so, it lost traction and off I went. I was a miracle I did not overturn, but I thankfully did not hit anything. This truly shook my confidence in the tractor in its current state for any snow removal tasks, as with my location, there are many hills like this--or steeper. I also now do not feel comfortable helping some of my neighbors who have similar situations as mine. This then got me to thinking if R1's which I tried last summer and posted on then, or weights would have helped, or if chains are my only option. The tractor is very powerful, but I really thought it should have done better in this setting than it did. I actually was pretty disappointed that my $20K plus machine did not fair well moving about 7" of snow in this setting. For me to justify keeping it, this is an important component of its overall yearly utility for me. Suggestions are welcome. Again, I use my Gator for the main areas due to its speed, but the landscape rake/tractor combo makes a theoretically nice choice for my personal gravel drive (to get to the main service road). It is, however, not worth dying for. As many of you know, both my wife and I are physicians, and so when on call, etc. we must be able to get out--no matter what the weather. This is one reason why I pursue potential snow removal as being an important item for us (we live in the country).

John M

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

YOUR TRACTOR sits in half the garage.
Let me guess what's in the other half.
YOUR CAR? YOUR STUFF?

My wife would be "less - than - enthused" as well.

Three simple things and your life will run a lot smoother:

1. Her car in the garage - your tractor outside.
2. Flowers and an apology for Valentines.
3. Chains.

 

[RobJ]

If you are both docs then you can probably afford to add on to the garage, keep the wife happy.

I have a 3 car garage (main house, no tractor or atv's) and can only get one car in because of my shop. I make sure that slot for her is open!!

You know the old saying...Momma sneezes and the rest of us catch a cold!!

 

[kude]

I am assuming you have turf tires on your 3720. Did you have the four wheel drive on? I find using the four wheel drive useful for traveling on hard packed snow. Under the icy conditions of your 25 degree sloping driveway, maybe you should invest in chains. The driveway may be hazardous for cars too, so you may want a spreader for salt or sand too. I've seen a Gator with a spreader on back, and something like that may help the condition of your driveway.

I have a Gator diesel HPX witha Deere plow and usually use it for plowing my flat crushed limestone U shaped driveway. We just had a 14 inch snowfall of heavy slushy snow and that's where I have to use the 3520 with FEL in certain places. I don't like using the bucket as I sometimes dig up the driveway.

I would be unsettled with a 60 foot slide. I think any tractor could slip in those conditions regardless of tires used. I would also use the seat belts in your conditions as well as chains. A bucket of snow can really weigh a lot, so be careful with your angle of attack when moving piles of snow on a 25 degree slope.

The only issues I have are sometimes hard starting in 0 degree temperatures and occasional freezing up of my Gator plow motor. A hammer tap gets it unstuck sometimes. My equipment and truck sits outside all the time unfortunately, but other than occasional hard starting they still work.

I plan to build a new garage this year to house all my stuff and eliminate hard starting problems/blade motor problems.

That's my prescription for your symptoms.

 

[jcmseven]

To responders,

Thanks for the posts thus far. Out of political correctness, I do alternate my vehicle with my wife's in the other half of the garage, but the tractor is ALWAYS under cover. Such as the priority in life. Rob, I wish your statement held always. Yes, we are physicians, but we don't make what we used to and most of what we make we pay in tax (not a political statement--an economic one). We also have a growing family and although the building did/has come up we have not wanted to spend for it due to not knowing how long we would ultimately own this house. Kude, I currently run R4 tires on my tractor not R3's. I do 90% percent of my plowing with the Gator but for our drive, I really like using the LR because it does not displace the gravel. I am reluctant now to use it again for this purpose due to my lack of confidence on the hill. And yes, my wife has slid into the ditch now four times while we have lived here along with countless others attempting to negotiate our drive when slick.

John M

 

[ChuckinNH]

Well Doc, I think you will have to write yourself a prescription for a set of chains. I don't think ( others can step in here) that there is any tractor size, or tire type that will eliminate your problems on slick hard packed snow, or ice without chains. A soft rubber compound, and turf tires would probably work best since most are siped to some extent, but chains are the answer. Next thing to add is a spreader like the Herd to get some sand, sand/salt mix or deicer on that hill. It is a whole lot cheaper, and safer than having people sliding in the ditch. It seems like a waste since it will all be gone in the spring, but that's the way it is in snow country.

Oh, and let your wife have the garage. I'm guessing the tractor was your idea.

 

[ddivinia]

Build an out building or carport for the tractor - keep the wife happy.

D.

 

[the_sandman_454]

Buy tire chains for the tractor!!! That should keep you from sliding all over the driveway. In addition to the tire chains, you might want to get the rear tires filled if they aren't already.

You really should get a spreader of some kind in order to put a traction adding material onto the driveway so you don't slide into a ditch with the automobiles.

Just throw a block heater into one of the cars, park it outside, and plug in the block heater. Either that, or go ahead and add another bit of space to the garage, since the housing situation is like it currently is most places, you can probably negotiate a good deal on a builder. It is at least worth looking into. You will probably make some of the investment back on the garage if you do go to sell.

 

[RalphVa]

I'll third the chains recommendations. OR, you could try putting some steel screws into the outer part of the tire lugs. Even if you have turf tires, they probably have enough "lug" at their outer ends to put the screws into. The screws would help out on ice.

I have a couple steep places going down the hill through our woods. Have experienced what you did when those spots were too muddy. It's not bad if you slid downhill head first, but when it occurs after you've gone up the hill a ways, it gets a bit scary.

We had a very steep driveway in NJ. Did a 180 in my little pickup one time. Luckily, the pickup missed the very sturdy stone-enclosed mailbox just beside the driveway at the bottom.

Ralph

 

[Wesdor]

We have a phrase around here that you should put into effect at your house.

"Aint Momma happy, aint nobody happy."

Enough said.

 

[yankeerider]

Chains, weight, and make sure the tires are set to the widest stance available. Keep the tractor! With experience you'll feel much more comfortable with it and be glad you've got it. There are just some storms where the temperature is such the snow packs immediately into almost ice and there's no traction available. When that happens, you want to scrape down to the gravel on the first pass so you're not packing it down.

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

Chuck hit the nail on the head. I bought a plow for my 3320 this year in hopes of replaceing my quad with plow and sander. Both for more seat time and it keeps the battey alive in the tractor. We got our first good storm early this year and a foot plus of wet heavy snow. The conditions stayed cold and I tested the plow out on a flat section in my drive. No problems I thought and headed down the drive a extreme angle( my drive) to say the least. I made a large swath with the blade straight. It seemed all was well, I continued to pile the snow. I then attempet to drive up the drive way with the r4 and 4x4 engaged. I was attempting to drive in the path I just cleared I made it about
10' and was headed side way in reverse down the drive with a plow heading straight for me. Well after a change of shorts and some explotives , I made it half was up the drive and parked it. I was defeated just as you were and extrmely disappointed it my tractor. The atv had no issues with the conditions and was the only saving grace. The long and short of this is r4 really have little surface area and all the weight in the world is useless on ice. Any tractor would have had the same issues. The answer to you problem is chains. They're fairly inexpensive and will put your mind at ease. As far as the garage issue your on your own.

Matt T.

 

[EdC]

John M

I am going to hop on the bandwagon and recommend chains as well. Last week I spent 8 hours in one go clearing my drive with my 2320 and having the back end slide all over the place. Don't know what I would have done if I had slid 60 ft backwards...probably hibernate till spring . In any case I am ordering a set of chains this coming payday. I like seat time but eight hours is too much of a good thing.

The idea of sand or gravel spread for traction also sounds like a heck of a good idea. Is your wife's car AWD?

 

[jcmseven]

Well, I, like most folks, thought I could get by without chains. I have a large asphalt pad in front of the house and I have not wanted to scuff it with chains. Also, if the JD rear chains are as difficult to mount as some I have done, the snow would have either buryed us or melted by the time I got them on. I, of course, want to be safe first off. My dealer has somewhat discouraged me from getting them, but he lives where it is flat and not as much snow. I am not saying we get a lot of snow here, but at our elevation, which pushes 4000' (high for the eastern US--the top of our mountain is 6100') and temps which mimic the NE more than the south, we get snow when most others in our area do not. Also, 4" of snow pack here can really foul things up. All our vehicles are either four or all wheel drive (save one) but they all also are four wheel stop, which is the limiting factor most times. This is why it surprised me when about halfway up the hilled part of our drive, my tractor suddenly lost traction and began sliding backward and sideways. It also continued to slide despite having a 1072LR down and a 72" front blade fully down and dug in. It slid a solid 30' after these things were done. Had I run my ballast box--which sometimes I do--I am highly confident I would have slid into the ravine. I always wear my belt and keep the ROPS up, but with a 60' drop at the end of the drive I do not think it would have necessarily saved me. That said I hate to park a 44 hp tractor when it snows. As for spreading salt, etc. this is why we left our drive graveled in the steep part. Usually with the LR, I can churn up gravel, creating traction. In this case, even with 10 42 lb. Quik-tach weights on the weight bracket of the LR, I could not turn up any on the hard ground.

John M

 

[jcmseven]

I spelled buryed incorrectly. It is "buried". Sometimes physicians are smart, but it doesn't mean we can spell.

John M

 

[B8FISH]

Count me in for the chains! I often think that I can get through the winter without them (my driveway is pretty flat) but one trip around the barn, sliding downhill sideways in a couple of inches of snow always changes my mind. I usually end up at the bottom of the hill where it gets flat again, turn around, and go up the hill in reverse so that I can use the loader bucket as an aid (and stop from going down again). The chains are a mild pain to put on, but worth it!

 

[bxowner]

A real-world (and easy) explanation for the problem are your tires... R4s have a very hard rubber compound and have no siping whatsoever. What's siping? It's the little slits that you'll find in the tread pattern on certain tires... BF Goodrich Mud Terrains? No! They're just like R4s - designed for off-road, rocky, gnarly ground that would cut right through a car tire. Nokia Hakkapeliittas? Yes! They're dedicated snow tires with thousands and thousands of these little 'slits' in the tread pattern - and the rubber compound is very soft so they can flex. They're designed to fill up with snow as the tread closes up (as the tire rotates) and literally "stick" to the ground on the next rotation. Here's a picture:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/hl/images/hakka_5-1.jpg

Your average "mud and snow" tire is somewhere in between - because those 'sipes' make a ton of noise as you're driving along and would make most people crazy. Also, in the summer, the tread compound is so soft, you'd wear them out in no time.

Now, I fully realize that we don't put snow tires on a tractor - but the lack of siping on the R4s prevent the tire from having any traction to speak of. The municipalities here in Vermont actually run different sets of tires during the winter - smaller turf tires for the John Deeres that plow the sidewalks. No chains - but no hills either. The turfs give quite a bit of traction compared to the R4s. But, the reality is that on a slope that's coated in either ice or hardpack snow, there isnt a tire out there (studded, I suppose would be an exception) that's going to give you traction to stop.

Two things you'll find with chains - (1) you're going to be in for sticker shock if you get a proper set of chains for the R4s and (2) they're a royal pain to put on the first time, then only mildly difficult each season afterward. Traditional "ladder" style chains won't work because the links will fall into the tread - that is, unless you get such a large chain link size so there's some metal exposed beyond the tread. The set I bought for my 2320 were $400, discounted pretty well and have a 'cross' pattern that leaves the chain on top of the tread, rather than between it. They're heavy as can be. But reasonably easy to install - place them over the tire (yes, that fender gets in the way!) and drive forward slowly until the ends are close together. But the first time you go to install, you've got to put them on for measurement purposes only - then remove them to cut the extra links out. Mine are 3/8" hardened links and certainly can't be cut with a Sawzall or hack-saw. I had to take them to a machine shop and get them cut with acetylene. I can now go right over ice - and only lose traction when I've pushed so much snow that it overpowers the tractor.

If I had an experience like your's, I'd be looking into a set of front chains, too.

 

[dirtworksequip]

John, the first mistake you made was letting the snow on your driveway get packed in. The second mistake you made was not recognizing that this was a dangerous situation. The third mistake you make was attempting to climb the driveway without changing your set up.As you found out, your third mistake could have been your last. It wasn't your tractors fault. Would R1's made a difference....maybe. I have not personally seen R1's break traction on packed snow. Although someone else here may have had this happen to them. Every situation is different. As steep as your drive is you either need R1's with chains on the front or chains on the rear on the R4's. You had tried out some R1's earlier and decided that you did not like them for one reason or the other and went back to the R4's. So now you need to change you set up so you don't get into trouble again.
Your biggest asset on your tractor is you. You must use your brain to decide whether or not a situation is putting your life at risk or not. If you make the wrong decision it can have serious concequenses.
You said you could not get any stone exposed with the rake. Let me suggest that you angle it all the way and try that. Work from one side of the drive and I can almost guarantee that you will get some stone raked onto the road. There should be some stone on the road edge that the angled rake will pop loose and pull into the road. Make another pass with it angled if you don't have enough stone. Then finish off with a straight pass or two.
I appoligise if I seem to be coming on too strong, but I would hate to hear that you had gotten hurt or worse. Think any situation out, it will save you lots of troubles. In over 30 years of running heavy equipment I have been in lots of bad situations and could have gotten killed in one or two of them. In the ones that turned out bad it was always my fault and not the machine. Know your machines limits and your own. The experience you had the other day was just a wake up call. Take that knowlege and turn it into." I need to change my set up to avoid this happening again" Chains are needed. They maybe a pain to put on, but may save your life. It will be well worth the time needed to put them on. If you get lazy that one time and think you can get away without using them. Just think..............that may be the one time that gets you killed.
My appoligises again. WORK SAFE!
Sincerely, Dirt

 

[jcmseven]

Dirt,

While I appreciate your candor, I would like for you and others to know I am not a yahoo who takes safety lightly. My tractor has climbed this same drive in the snow many times before without difficulty, so my initial impression was that this time was no more risky than any other time. Also, the speed at which the tractor started to slide was amazing. The literally was no indication of trouble until things went south. As for the packing down, the local UPS truck (with chains) was the only vehicle that came down the hill, so the packing might have occurred there. I tried angling the LR, but at 8 degrees the ground was hardpacked and I saw zero gravel be turned up. As for the R1's, I liked them very much but with a heavy load in the front bucket and my hills they became unstable in the sidewall. I never ran them at the widest position, but did run them at the next to widest and they still would mire on soft ground. Traction was never an issue, but stability was on occasion. I would reconsider them if they would help here though--but it sounds like they might not have. As you aptly stated, my brain then took over and I parked the tractor. There was no second run up this hill on this day.

John M

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

John, the price for chains for the r4 rears is only around $250 I got a quote a few weeks back. Put them on in the late fall and remove them in the spring. Never under estimate snow! Problem solved. Now report back once you've heeded the advice of the TBN God's.

Matt T.