Is it Illegal to....

[TrippleT]

I spent five grand on surveys here, and it is against the law to remove a survey marker here. That said, it would be hard to prove as years go by. However, in most states there is what is called adverse possession if you can squat on someones land, after a certain period of time you can claim it as yours. That says to me you better know your boundaries. I found out the hard way. It cost me big bucks for lawyers etc.

 

[ridgerunnerinwv]

....remove a land boundary survey marker? I know it is not nice, but is there a law with a penalty attached?
By the way, I'm not planning on doing it. It was just a local discussion about a farmer and a plow. I can't seem to find the law, if there is one.
Thanks.

It is illegal in West Virgina.

 

[Bird]

woodchuckie, Some original markers, described in the old deeds I have, are a rock and one as a tree. Could it be illegal to move the rock or tree?


Here is another related interesting question: My 4 corners are on the same elevation. The land in between the corners is hilly. If the land was like a piece of paper and laid flat and re-measured would I actually have more acres? Do I have more acres?

Rocks, trees, etc. Read section 72.003 on here.

 

[scott_vt]

Here is another related interesting question: My 4 corners are on the same elevation. The land in between the corners is hilly. If the land was like a piece of paper and laid flat and re-measured would I actually have more acres? Do I have more acres?

Mornin Don,
Boy if thats the case, Im thinkin I will like the outcome !

 

[AlanB]

Here is what our area has online.

" + theTitle + "

It is really neat, and quick and can help with a lot of things, but is not accurate in several things and is not an "official" document, for that you still go to the courthouse

I have had the opportunity here lately to use it a lot.

It is kind of neat to play around on though.

 

[zeuspaul]

Laws vary by state. Generally a land boundary moves with a water boundary if the movement is slow and imperceptible and is by natural means. Most likely the island remains with the original owner but in its new location. If land is bounded by a stream and the stream moves slowly over time the boundary moves with it.

Zeuspaul

 

[tallyho8]

Laws vary by state. Generally a land boundary moves with a water boundary if the movement is slow and imperceptible and is by natural means. Most likely the island remains with the original owner but in its new location. Zeuspaul

That's what is interesting about this case. The island moved from one state to the next and the laws are different in these two states.

 

[schmism]

ill give the quick story of my land purches of this past august.

The bank required no survey. My wife works for a survey company (she is the engineering dept for it) So naturally we had a survey done. As i wanted to stand out in my front yard, be able to look over and definitively without question say THAT CORNER THERE! is my property!

my neighbors bought the adjoining property last nov and just moved in this past labor day. They also did NOT get a survey.

When we had our survey done it was determined that there was a significant chunk of property (that our driveway sits on) that was neither deeded to us or them.

There was also a question of what markers to use as our property sits on a quarter section line. Those quarter section intersections were/are marked with stones back from the 1800's. THOSE are considered (quite literally set in stone) gospel when it comes to survey. The problem arises when the 2 stones are set perfectly north/south 0.00000 degs (as measured with modern equip over a 1/2 mile or something like that) but a property line marker at our property (even though is shown on the plat map as ON the quarter section line) is NOT inline with the 2 stones, in fact it sits east about 3'. As such our surveyor said the point was to be ignored because it was clear that the property (as drawn on the org 1857 plat map) was to be ON the section line. but that the marker (an ancient post) was incorrect.

Hears the kicker as others have mentioned, ask another surveyor? he might say that because the post has been there for umteen million years, that it is a "gospel" point and therefore it SHOULD be used. (ignoring the fact that it does not line up perfectly with the quarter section stones)

As a result our surveyor set new pins (2' long sections of rebar in the ground) at all corners and his legal description of or property (what got recorded as the deed) references those pins. As a result our property line is 4' into the neighbors cow pasture.

The undeeded portion, the driveway sits on, we split with the neighbor, i keep my driveway, he keeps his front yard (it was almost an acre of property) via a process called quite claim. (i don't claim your half and you don't claim my half)

 

[Dusty]

In CT, the one thing that the law does provide for when deeds don't agree with the original markers is that once a survey is done, and a plot plan filed, after X number of years, that survey is considered to be gospel. When you file a deed with a plot plan and description, it is considered that you have served notice on all abutters that you are claiming that your survey is correct, and they have to challenge that survey within a specific time frame. If they don't, they loose all rights to any future claims. I believe that the only way that a filed plot plan and deed can be reversed after the time period is if they can prove intentional fraud in an attempt to "steal" someone else's land. Other states might have similar laws.
Dusty

 

[RobJ]

Here is what our area has online.

" + theTitle + "

It is really neat, and quick and can help with a lot of things, but is not accurate in several things and is not an "official" document, for that you still go to the courthouse

I have had the opportunity here lately to use it a lot.

It is kind of neat to play around on though.

it looks fun but I don't see anything but some purple lines. maybe I don't have the proper checkboxes checked. Is harris county (Houston), you can see the lot address and dimentions. Still no real meets and bounds. But in a neighborhood it may be different. IE Lot 1 Block 3, etc.

Rob

http://www.hcad.org/iMaps/Tiles/Color/5169D2.pdf

 

[Kubotasrking]

so if you pull up a stake and theres no one around to see you do it is it illegal?
if a tree falls in a forest and theres no one around to hear it does it make any noise?
a neighbor once told me that some of my land really belonged to my neighbor across the road because the road was one of the boundaries and the road has moved since the original survey. but i have a survey that shows the road where it is now. i think there is a common law that land you consider yours and you make use of as if it is yours and there has been no complaint about it for 7 years then the land is actually yours. ok...so i didnt really pay close attention when i took business law.

I think it is called adverse possession.

 

[gemini5362]

I actually know someone who knows a lot about this thread at least as it would apply in Arkansas and Oklahoma.

Let me comment on some of the things I have seen in this thread.

1. Adverse posession- In arkansas it is 7 years. The problem is that most people do not read the adverse in Adverse Posession. The most common one i believe is fences. If someone puts a fence up on his property and lets say he moved it 5 feet on your land. If you do not have survey markers up and did not realize he put it on your land then after 7 years he does not aquire the property. On the other hand if you knew it was in the wrong place and sent them a letter telling them to move the fence then waited over 7 years to do anything about it then you might have a problem.

2. I believe the country was divided up into squares and most property is tied to those. If you had the desire to spend enough money you might be able to go back to a range marker or township marker etc and go from there. Most people dont want to spend that kind of money so things get a bit hazy sometimes. This of course does not even begin to think about covering property once owned by someone in an indian tribe. If you buy land once owned by someone that belonged to a recognized tribe it can get kind of dicy determining ownership.

3. Who cares about the lines. ? Well if it had been in Arkansas the people that Eddie wrote about early in the thread who had a house built over the line with part of it on someone elses property might have cared a lot about it. If you wanted to push the issue far enough you can make them either move the house or tear it down. But the landowner has the right to make them clear the house off of their land. It is rarely done they usually do what happened in that case. Swap some land for it. Sell it etc etc. But the law does recognize the right to make them move the structure.

4 I worked with a survey crew for a couple of weeks when I was broke and out of money. I dont know what kind of metal detector they use but it worked pretty good. A lot of times in subdivisions they would put a spike in the ground on the road in front of the house where it would be paved over then they would come along later if they had to survey a house there and find that spike with a metal detector.

 

[txdon]

Rocks, trees, etc. Read section 72.003 on here.

Bird, your link did not work for me. Don

 

[Bird]

Don, now it doesn't work for me either, and I'm not sure why. But the section I was referring to is the Local Government Code, Chapter 72. County Boundaries. I'm sure it doesn't apply to surveys except those marking the corners of the county, but I thought the kind of markers required to be a bit odd.

§ 72.003. BOUNDARY MARKERS. (a) The initial corners of
the survey shall be designated by boundary markers.
(b) Only a post, a stone monument, or a mound may be used as
a boundary marker.
(c) A post used as a boundary marker must be of hewn cedar,
cypress, or bois d'arc. The post must be at least eight inches in
diameter and at least five feet in length and must be set in the
ground to a depth of at least three feet.
(d) A mound used as a boundary marker must be composed of
stone if the use of stone is practicable. If the use of stone is not
practicable, a mound may be composed of earth. A mound must be at
least two feet in height.

 

[Doc_Bob]

1. Adverse posession- In arkansas it is 7 years. The problem is that most people do not read the adverse in Adverse Posession. The most common one i believe is fences. If someone puts a fence up on his property and lets say he moved it 5 feet on your land. If you do not have survey markers up and did not realize he put it on your land then after 7 years he does not aquire the property. On the other hand if you knew it was in the wrong place and sent them a letter telling them to move the fence then waited over 7 years to do anything about it then you might have a problem.

So if you know and do nothing, after 7 years, you lose. If you are unaware, then you don't lose your land?
Bob

 

[AlanB]

it looks fun but I don't see anything but some purple lines. maybe I don't have the proper checkboxes checked. Is harris county (Houston), you can see the lot address and dimentions. Still no real meets and bounds. But in a neighborhood it may be different. IE Lot 1 Block 3, etc.

Rob

http://www.hcad.org/iMaps/Tiles/Color/5169D2.pdf

You click on Parcels on the right, then the little I on the top, then click on the parcel you are interested in and it gives all (well I think it is all) the relevant information.

I think they do it that way so it is not so "busy" when you are looking at it.

 

[Bird]

Adverse possession is another of those things that vary by state. I was just reading the CIVIL PRACTICE & REMEDIES CODE, CHAPTER 16. LIMITATIONS, SUBCHAPTER A. LIMITATIONS OF PERSONAL ACTIONS on adverse possession in Texas and find there are 3, 5, 10, and 25 year limitations depending on circumstances.

 

[LBrown59]

I actually know someone who knows a lot about this thread at least as it would apply in Arkansas and Oklahoma.

A lot of times in subdivisions they would put a spike in the ground on the road in front of the house where it would be paved over then they would come along later if they had to survey a house there and find that spike with a metal detector.
***************

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91155&goto=newpost
Let me comment on some of the things I have seen in this thread.

1. Adverse posession- In arkansas it is 7 years. The problem is that most people do not read the adverse in Adverse Posession. The most common one i believe is fences. If someone puts a fence up on his property and lets say he moved it 5 feet on your land. If you do not have survey markers up and did not realize he put it on your land then after 7 years he does not aquire the property. On the other hand if you knew it was in the wrong place and sent them a letter telling them to move the fence then waited over 7 years to do anything about it then you might have a problem.

2. I believe the country was divided up into squares and most property is tied to those. If you had the desire to spend enough money you might be able to go back to a range marker or township marker etc and go from there. Most people dont want to spend that kind of money so things get a bit hazy sometimes. This of course does not even begin to think about covering property once owned by someone in an indian tribe. If you buy land once owned by someone that belonged to a recognized tribe it can get kind of dicy determining ownership.

3. Who cares about the lines. ? Well if it had been in Arkansas the people that Eddie wrote about early in the thread who had a house built over the line with part of it on someone elses property might have cared a lot about it. If you wanted to push the issue far enough you can make them either move the house or tear it down. But the landowner has the right to make them clear the house off of their land. It is rarely done they usually do what happened in that case. Swap some land for it. Sell it etc etc. But the law does recognize the right to make them move the structure.

4 I worked with a survey crew for a couple of weeks when I was broke and out of money. I dont know what kind of metal detector they use but it worked pretty good. A lot of times in subdivisions they would put a spike in the ground on the road in front of the house where it would be paved over then they would come along later if they had to survey a house there and find that spike with a metal detector.

Any deed I've had or seen the starting point was always an iron pin in the center of the road.

 

[MikePA]

Any deed I've had or seen the starting point was always an iron pin in the center of the road.

Deed descriptions can start anywhere on the boundary, not just in the middle of the road. Typically, they start at a place that's easy to access.

 

[TrippleT]

In my case, here in Arkansas, my uncle owned this property where I am now. A fellow built a little house, and remove a part of the fence, even though they had a sharp confrontation.
After the passing of my uncle, several years later, I became owner of the property.
The fellow who had built his house kept encroaching further into my yard. I had two surveys and put up a fence. In fact, I made an offset to the fence so HE could work on the house in the back which was, in fact, on my property, according to the deed and surveys.
When I had this property surveyed the fellow pulled the stakes, I called the surveyor, and he called the police. The police came out and the fellow said it was his small boy who pulled them. We did not press the issue and he replaced the stakes.
The next thing I know, I get a letter from a lawyer. The fellow, who had built on my property, was trying to take the property by adverse possession. I obtained the services of an attorney to protect my interests.
Granted, there are certain criteria that must be met in this state, and others as well, before adverse possession can be accomplished.
After thousands of dollars, and lots of headaches, we resolved the problem. My purpose in this is to let those who might not know, that you should know your boundaries, or it could result in serious consequences.