Is it Illegal to....

[Skyco]

What's all this talk about steel markers? One of my surveys says;

"...SE 1000 varas to a pile of rocks on the brow of a hill for a corner, thense N 45 E, 905 varas from whence a mesquite bears N to a post oak..."

I kid you not. I've not found one of these "markers". Think it's time to get it updated?

I'm dealing with the exact same thing! My property in NC has a deed clause about some family having perpetual access to a spring. We can't find the spring...all the old surveys that mention it note something like just east of the line from the locust tree to the big rock

 

[MikeD74T]

The New hampshire statute:
CHAPTER 472
BOUNDARY LINES

Section 472:6

<B> 472:6 Removing or Altering Boundary Markers. æ&#141;§/B>
I. Any person who purposely commits or causes to be committed any of the following acts with regard to a boundary marker knowing it to be a boundary marker shall be guilty of a misdemeanor: defacement, alteration of location, or removal of a stone wall or monument, or a mark on a tree, made for the purpose of designating a point, course or line in the boundary of a tract of land or in the dividing line between towns.
II. The provisions of paragraph I shall not apply when a boundary marker is moved pursuant to:
(a) Mutual agreement between all landowners whose property lines are affected by the moving of the boundary, or
(b) Authorization by government officials in order to more accurately place the boundary, or
(c) A finally adjudicated court order or decree, or
(d) A law that requires or allows the movement or alteration.
Source. 1983, 21:2, eff. June 11, 1983.

Was once held up for several weeks on a construction project when an abuttor, also a planning board member in abstencia, non-specifically disagreed with our survey. Ultimately we found a second survey mark, a drilled hole in a buried rock, that created a strip of land that tapered from 18" to nothing over 300'. Neither party claimed ownership. He knew of both marks and just declared the disagreement to interrupt our work as he had previously tried to buy the property for a lowball sum.

If it's just a surface problem, and not installed specific to elevation, one could just drive it below grade enough to clear the plow. A surveyor in my area uses a 2 piece rebar pin connected with a piece of pipe welded to the lower half. If someone pulls the top out of the ground the other piece remains 18' below grade & is easily relocated. MikeD74T

 

[RadarTech]

ok-- I went and read most of this post..
and I have a few comments..

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it does it make a noise..
--Trick question-- NOISE- NO=== Sound--- YES
A noise : noise - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Since no one is there to hear it, it can't be an unwanted or unpleasant sound because no one heard it!

ok- Wise guy mode-- OFF

now for the other thoughts..

on our plat we have:
1. Corner defined by old truck axle
2. Center point located in large rock with steel pin

Now over the course of clearing land and building the house there were a couple of dead trees that have ribbon tied to them. One of them fell and I pushed another down before it hit anything (it was only 20 feet tall and I did it with the loader). By definition this is not a pin, so I would say I am fine. The adjacent properly owner could not be reached (they live in another state) - calls,regular letter (unanswered),certified letter(returned)...

The ribbons were placed on the trees to mark the line of site as the pins are on the downward slope on each side of a hill... Well it was a hill before we knocked the top off and built the house!

anyway-- that's my story and I'm sticking to it..

Later,
J

 

[texasjohn]

First point... even your Varas are bigger in Texas

http://recenter.tamu.edu/pdf/1776.pdf
is a 2006 TAM summary of Texas law regarding adverse possession.
Different rules apply at 3, 5, 10 and 25 years... becoming less restrictive with longer time. Tacking, Tolling and minerals are defined and discussed.

Twarr1, I can't suggest you update the markers until you meet the 25 year marker, including the appropriate Tacking time.

Not being a lawyer, I can suggest you "use it or lose it," or that "possession is .9 of the law."

 

[txdon]

Wow, the post lives after 2 1/2 years.

I have a little follow-up on the supposed plowed up survey marker. The farmer had the triangulated measurements from a tree that was still there and a post that had been moved some, so we were able to search a 10 square foot area that we were pretty sure the steel pin would be located if it was not plowed up. I got some hits on my metal detector and after digging around for an hour located the pin 2 feet deep surrounded in concrete. Woohooo!

 

[texasjohn]

Txdon.... you have lots of neat things.... a metal detector that works to 2 feet down would be fun to have... digging the 2 foot hole, not so much

 

[dodge man]

Wow what a post! Being a Land Surveryor licensed in Illinois and Iowa, let me say there is A LOT of misinfromation in this post. First off let me say you can not normally get your survey on line. There are aerial photos available on line in some places that will show boundary lines, but they are NOT surveys. They are for assesing peoples land and do not take the place of a boundary survey.

Let me also say that surveyors are not making money hand over fist. You can make a good living surveying, even more so if you are licensed. It is also a very competive buisness. Most surveys in the rural area around here can be very expensive because they are rarely surveyed and the markers are usually gone. It always amazed me that someone will spend $200,000 for a house or spend $500,000 for a piece of land but have a hissy fit when I tell them it will cost $3000 for a land survey. BTW a survey grade GPS system costs over $30,000 new.

 

[txdon]

Txdon.... you have lots of neat things.... a metal detector that works to 2 feet down would be fun to have... digging the 2 foot hole, not so much

Actually the sentence should have been written without the "and":

"I got some hits on my metal detector after digging around for an hour located the pin 2 feet deep surrounded in concrete."


The metal detector pickded up the pin about a foot away.

 

[dodge man]

The metal detectors we use work really well. I have found pins as deep as 4 feet deep. They don't find the junk, such as coins and such, but pick up everthing made of steel or iron. I have dug up my fair share of junk over the years.

 

[RobJ]

What's all this talk about steel markers? One of my surveys says;

"...SE 1000 varas to a pile of rocks on the brow of a hill for a corner, thense N 45 E, 905 varas from whence a mesquite bears N to a post oak..."

I kid you not. I've not found one of these "markers". Think it's time to get it updated?

Mine to in a survey that is only 5 years old. a 10" pin oak and another a 12" pin oak.

 

[boxygen]

Dodgeman,
Thanks for chiming in, as i was reading through this thread I was waiting for a surveyor to set this straight. Tax maps are far from deeds, they are more pictorial than anything, and I'v seen them wrong before also.
Also, Nobody has mentioned how much research is involved in doing an accurate survey. As much if not more time is spent at the registry researching previous deeds, abutters' deed, subdivison plans, road commissioners plans to "walk the steps" of all the previous surveyors. Just because the surveyor was onsite for 6 hours, doesnt mean thats all the time they spent on the survey.
Here in Maine, the registry of deeds is available online for a few of the counties. Deeds and plans need to be paid for to print though. You can very quickly find things by name, date, book and page # ect. Very handy if you know how to use it.

 

[dodge man]

Good point, research is a big part, even more so out east where most states are "metes and bounds" method of describing property. There is also the time involved to draw up the plat and calculate the location of the boundary if some of the corners are missing. I have actually gotten a couple of surveys because the tax maps didn't show the correct location for the boundarys. In one case the tax map showed someones house over the line, which wasn't the case.

 

[LBrown59]

ok-- I went and read most of this post..
and I have a few comments..

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it does it make a noise..
--Trick question-- NOISE- NO=== Sound--- YES
A noise : noise - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Since no one is there to hear it, it can't be an unwanted or unpleasant sound because no one heard it!

ok- Wise guy mode-- OFF

now for the other thoughts..

down before it hit anything (it was only 20 feet tall and I did it with the loader). By definition this is not a pin, so I would say I am fine. The adjacent properly owner could not be reached (they live in another state) - calls,regular letter (unanswered),certified letter(returned)...
Later,
J

Wonder why they would not accept your letter?

 

[jimbo64]

....remove a land boundary survey marker? I know it is not nice, but is there a law with a penalty attached?
By the way, I'm not planning on doing it. It was just a local discussion about a farmer and a plow. I can't seem to find the law, if there is one.
Thanks.

it is illegal and should be. you would be destoying the validity of something that someone paid big bucks for, [ surveys ain;t cheap as they say ] you could end up doing the re-survey and paying for it, losing some friends or getting shot. nuff said

 

[tallyho8]

The last 2 survey markers I had placed on my property cost me $5000 each. I would be awful upset if someone moved them.

 

[texasjohn]

Am no lawyer, but expect that there is a legal difference between moving vs removing a survey stake.

I suspect that there are many reasons that a survey stake might be inadvertantly or innocently or necessarily "removed."

To MOVE a stake would be an attempt to gain land without paying for it.

 

[dmccarty]

In NC it is a misdemeanor to mess with a survey marker.

Course proving that someone did it is going to be hard.

My neighbor hit one of the concrete monuments with his tractor. He left it as is so its pretty obvious it has been "moved" a tad. But it was an accident and he has not been arrested.

Later,
Dan

 

[ray66v]

From my room at the Holiday Inn Express:

The the way laws I have read so far are worded, they indicate that it is illegal, if you have bad intentions.

That would mean: If you were to remove, and replace it in the same spot, or remove it to erect say a fence post, that would not be deceptive, or mischievous, and therefore would not be illegal.