injection pump questions

/ injection pump questions #1  

silvereagle68

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
8
Location
Bloomfield,Ct.
Tractor
1968 ford 4500
I have a 1968 4500 ford tractor 3-cyl. diesel how does my fuel injector work? I have two filters two pipes coming out of them one goes to the rear of injector one to the side which one is the feed, is one of them a return?can some one explain how it works
 
/ injection pump questions #2  
Eagle68
I can give you an overview which is not specific to your tractor.
On the side of your engine will be a small mechanical lift pump whose job it is to take fuel from the main tank and deliver it to a high pressure injection pump.
On the way to the injection pump the fuel passes through 2 filters to try and ensure no foreign material gets to the injection pump and injectors which are built to very tight tolerances and any foreign material can destroy the tight clearance between the parts of the high pressure part of the system.
A diesel system cannot tolerate any air in the high pressure part of the system. A bit like having air in the brakes of your car,. The fuel as a liquid is needed to be air free to transfer the pressure from the injection pump to the injectors.
To help avoid air problems, the fuel filters are vented back to the fuel tank so that the any air is purged out before it can cause problems at the injection pump
If you can post a picture I could identify individual components.
I am not certain of your level of knowledge so plse dont be insulted if I am telling you things you already know.
Your tractor will have an injection pump with three small diameter metal lines leaving it and going to each individual injector of which there will be three one for each cylinder.
These lines at a specific moment in the rotation of the engine will be fed with a pulse of very high pressure fuel which will force open the injector and spray fuel into the cylinder thus causing the engine to run.
On some injectors there is a low pressure bled line that allows any fuel leaking past the high pressure circuit to return to the fuel tank. Usually the low pressure line from each injector will be connected to each other and then returned to the tank.
If you need more info or clarification dont hesitate to ask..
Dave M7040
 
/ injection pump questions #3  
Dave M7040
I have a question related to how injection pumps work.
I have a TC33, I changed the fuel filter and could not get the air out. The middle injector bleed fine. The front was weaker. The rear was hit and miss. Sometimes fuel came out and other times it did not. I did get the problem fixed. My son had come over to help. He was going to bleed the injectors at the pump. I corrected him and we tightened up what he started to open. Or so we thought.
It turned out the big piece coming out of the pump that looks like an injector was just a hair from being tight. The line kept it from tightening. When we would really get it tight, about a second later there would be a ping. The line would un-tighten it. I had to take the line loose before I could tighten the big thing.
So my questions:
What is that big thing?
Why did it not bleed?
Why did it stop fuel from making it to the injector?
 
/ injection pump questions #4  
Your question: What is that big thing? It is the injection pump if I understand you correctly.
You can think of the injection pump as a very specialized hydraulic jack that pumps a small high pressure volume of fuel to the injector where it is sprayed in a fine mist into the cylinder at just the right time in the engine rotation. The pressures are often 15,000 psi or higher so nothing to treat lightly.
A liquid is in-compressible. In other words if you have a tube full of liquid and apply a force to one end of the liquid that force will be immediately transferred through the liquid to the other end of the tube.
Air on the other hand is compressible. An air compressor keeps squeezing more air into its storage tank and the pressure builds up over time. But air is like a spring and does not immediately transfer force like a liquid does. If you have a high pressure steel fuel injector supply line with a tiny bubble of air in it, when the injection pump tries to send a pulse of fuel to the injector the air bubble will just compress and absorb the force in the fuel. The injector relies on the high pressure fuel to force it open allowing fuel into the cylinder. The injection pump is a bit like a distributor on a gas engine which provides a spark at just the right time for each cylinder but in this case rather than providing a spark it provides a pulse of fuel.

Your question: Why did it not bleed? To bleed a fuel injection system on a diesel, things must be done in the correct sequence or you will be unsuccessful.
First you need to bleed the low pressure part of the fuel system which includes the filters and possibly even part of the injection pump. Having an owner's manual for your machine will be a big help as it will provide instructions on bleeding for those times when you run out of fuel or are doing maintenance. The final step in the bleeding process involves loosening the steel lines at each injector as the engine turns over. Once you get a tiny spurt of fuel out of the slightly fitting tighten it and move to the next injector. You cannot do all injectors at once.


Your question: Why did it stop fuel from making it to the injector? You had not bleed the system in the correct sequence and had air bubbles in the system.

I dont know your particular machine but will point out some things using a photo of a Leyland engine.
UONeW4K.jpg


The red arrow point to a locking device to prevent the fittings on top of the injection pump from loosening. Most engines have some sort of device to do this job but many are left off or fall off over the years. Making a home made locking device would prevent loosening of the fittings. Keeping in mind the high pressures will help you understand the forces that are trying to loosen the fitting.

The green arrow shows a plastic low pressure hose running between the injectors to bleed off any excess fuel in the injector. It will run back to the low pressure part of the system or the tank.

The yellow arrow shows the steel high pressure line running from the injection pump to each injector.

Hope this is of some help.

Dave M7040
 
/ injection pump questions #5  
Thanks, you put in a lot of effort to help.
I am not sure I got the answer.
The red arrow shows where it needed tightening.
I just do not understand why there was no fuel leakage or sign of it being loose and fuel some times got to the inject and sometimes it did not.
Had I not seen my son loosen it I would never have checked it and never have found the problem.
 
/ injection pump questions #7  
The fuel as a liquid is needed to be air free to transfer the pressure from the injection pump to the injectors.
To help avoid air problems, the fuel filters are vented back to the fuel tank so that the any air is purged out before it can cause problems at the injection pump Dave M7040

Dave
May I ask what brand/model tractor that you referred to that has fuel filters vented to fuel tank? A Ford 4500 nor my Ford 6700 don't have fuel filters vented to tank. I've been around diesel tractors since the mid 1960's and don't remember any tractors fuel filters vented to tank including my Kubota M7040 with only 2 hose fittings on filter base(photo below). Granted fuel inj pumps have a fuel return line that attaches to top of injectors then back to fuel tank.
Thanks,Jim
 

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/ injection pump questions #8  
I have a 1968 4500 ford tractor 3-cyl. diesel how does my fuel injector work? I have two filters two pipes coming out of them one goes to the rear of injector one to the side which one is the feed, is one of them a return?can some one explain how it works


Dual filters on Fords are just that dual filters. My Ford 6700 has a water separator mounted on one of the filter bases but I've seen Fords with 2 filters side by side that fuel must pass through both filters to get to inj pump. I once owned a Ford 3000 that was the most difficult machine to bleed the air out of the fuel system. When 3000 was run out of fuel after bleeding system for a long time with a no start I'd tow tractor less than 10 ft and it would start.
 
/ injection pump questions #9  
ch1ch2
I'll add to Dave's post that nut(parts key 1A) holds plunger(parts key 8) into inj pump housing so that plunger can pump fuel to the corresponding injector.
 

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/ injection pump questions
  • Thread Starter
#10  
I replaced the o-rings on the throttle shaft and fuel stop shaft because of a leak I put cover back on I bleed the bleeder hole I get a good stream no air, tighten nut.no fuel is coming out of the 3 lines am I not bleeding it properly? I'm sure I got the fuel stop pin in the hooked bar when I put the top back on I loosened the lines but no fuel. It worked before I removed the top.I have the two filter setup,a friend told me to fill up the filters with diesel fuel because I changed them, that mite help are there any bleeders on the top housing
 
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/ injection pump questions #11  
Dave
May I ask what brand/model tractor that you referred to that has fuel filters vented to fuel tank? A Ford 4500 nor my Ford 6700 don't have fuel filters vented to tank. I've been around diesel tractors since the mid 1960's and don't remember any tractors fuel filters vented to tank including my Kubota M7040 with only 2 hose fittings on filter base(photo below). Granted fuel inj pumps have a fuel return line that attaches to top of injectors then back to fuel tank.
Thanks,Jim

Jim
British tractors i.e. Leyland and Nuffield, Fordson are the ones I know have this feature and possibly some David Brown's. The banjo fitting on top of the second filter has a small orifice in it as you will see in the photo.

The banjo bolt on the top of the second fuel filter is vitally important to the running of the engine.

The banjo bolt on the top of the filter that connects to the return is a special one. It has the normal 3mm drilling up from the bottom but the cross drilling is only around 0.25mm and is only drilled through one side.
Its purpose is to allow any air that accidentally gets into the system to escape the system. Unfortunately it also allows a small amount of fuel to escape to so for this reason it is routed back to the tank. If a normal banjo bolt is used too much fuel escapes resulting in low fuel pressure being seen in the system and some injection pumps then perform sub standard!

This banjo bolt is separate from the in and out lines of the filter assembly and is located at the very top of the housing where any air would rise to and sit but because of the banjo bolt it can vent to the tank.

Also important is that the return line the banjo bolt feeds into through the orifice leads to near the bottom of the fuel tank. Often this pipe will break off and not be noticed. What happens then is that the owner begins having starting problems as air has been drawn back into the system through the broken off pipe. When the pipe is below the level of the fuel in the tank no air can be siphoned back into the fuel system as pressures drop and things cool off.

These tractors also have the common vent or drain line from each injector.

6Z7OvP7.jpg


jg7Pr5L.jpg


Hope this answers your question.

Dave M7040

p.s. since we are talking about unusual or new to me things, I recently learned of spring wound starters for use in countries where batteries are too expensive or unobtainable or you need a way to always start an engine. You crank the hex nut on the starter until the spring inside is fully compressed and then using the lever, release the spring's energy starting the tractor.

They start an engine much faster than a battery powered starter.
A quote from one manufacturer:
On a small engine the Startwell Starter rotates the engine through almost the same number of revolutions as an average electric starter (i.e. for approximately 3 seconds), but at a much higher speed, approximately three times as fast as a conventional electric starter. On larger engines it rotates the engine approximately twice as fast as an electric starter, allowing much less time for the heat to dissipate through the cylinder walls during a compression stroke, thus the engine cylinder rapidly reaches ignition point.

7wQpeLR.jpg
 
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/ injection pump questions #12  
I replaced the o-rings on the throttle shaft and fuel stop shaft because of a leak I put cover back on I bleed the bleeder hole I get a good stream no air, tighten nut.no fuel is coming out of the 3 lines am I not bleeding it properly? I'm sure I got the fuel stop pin in the hooked bar when I put the top back on I loosened the lines but no fuel. It worked before I removed the top.I have the two filter setup,a friend told me to fill up the filters with diesel fuel because I changed them, that mite help are there any bleeders on the top housing

G'day I would recheck that you have got the stop linkage under the cover correct, if it was working ok before then there is no reason for it not to be working now unless you have not got something right. They can be difficult to get them back in the right spot some times.

Also you may have to pump for a while to get all the air out if you have changed the filters

Jon
 
/ injection pump questions #13  
CH
The big question is it running OK now?
Dave m7040

Yes it is working now.
Thanks.
I was just trying to understand why it would not bleed at the injector, and why it did not bleed at the pump.

Tx Jim,
Thanks, From looking at the pic would I be correct in thinking that with part 1A not tight part 8 did not work?
 
/ injection pump questions #15  
I replaced the o-rings on the throttle shaft and fuel stop shaft because of a leak I put cover back on I bleed the bleeder hole I get a good stream no air, tighten nut.no fuel is coming out of the 3 lines am I not bleeding it properly? I'm sure I got the fuel stop pin in the hooked bar when I put the top back on I loosened the lines but no fuel. It worked before I removed the top.I have the two filter setup,a friend told me to fill up the filters with diesel fuel because I changed them, that mite help are there any bleeders on the top housing


Did that on my 3600 a few years ago. I think you have to bleed the fuel filter so no air in there, then bleed at the injector pump. On mine there is a bleed screw on the injector pump. It is on the side of the round pump body toward the rear on the side facing out. Then bleed at the injectors. I found an article or post about doing this online but don't see it now.
 
/ injection pump questions
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Hi Dave I changed my fuel filters and replaced the o-rings in the fuel injector cap on the throttle shaft and fuel shut off shaft I replaced cover making sure I lined up the hooked arm with the pin on the shut off.I bleed the filters at both lines,outer line goes to the rear of the pump I guess that is the feed ,the inner line goes to the side of the pump,I believe this is a return line that gets re filtered ,then I bleed the side of the pump that little bleeder I know the pump is full because if I loosen the little acorn nuts on the cap it will leak fuel so it is filled up to the top of the cap I get nothing coming out of the 3 lines no matter how long I turn engine over, every thing worked great before I fixed the shaft leak what am I doing wrong? also on the low pressure return line one side goes up to the fuel tank via some kind of small canister that also has a line from the exhaust manifold then vents into the top of fuel tank the other end goes back to the fuel injector. does the fuel from the return line some how make it back to the line on the front that returns to the filters without contact with the fresh fuel?
 
/ injection pump questions #17  
I'm not Dave but I'll bet you didn't get linkage under IP cover attached back the way it was originally therefore fuel isn't getting turned on inside IP.
 
/ injection pump questions #18  
Hi Dave I changed my fuel filters and replaced the o-rings in the fuel injector cap on the throttle shaft and fuel shut off shaft I replaced cover making sure I lined up the hooked arm with the pin on the shut off.I bleed the filters at both lines,outer line goes to the rear of the pump I guess that is the feed ,the inner line goes to the side of the pump,I believe this is a return line that gets re filtered ,then I bleed the side of the pump that little bleeder I know the pump is full because if I loosen the little acorn nuts on the cap it will leak fuel so it is filled up to the top of the cap I get nothing coming out of the 3 lines no matter how long I turn engine over, every thing worked great before I fixed the shaft leak what am I doing wrong? also on the low pressure return line one side goes up to the fuel tank via some kind of small canister that also has a line from the exhaust manifold then vents into the top of fuel tank the other end goes back to the fuel injector. does the fuel from the return line some how make it back to the line on the front that returns to the filters without contact with the fresh fuel?

Eagle
I sure seems like the fuel shut off is still in the off position and as Jim says you have not put something back in the correct position.
Dave M7040
 
/ injection pump questions #19  
Eagle
Does your injection pump look in any way like the one below?
JK77YKa.jpg

If it does then the first step in the bleeding is to slightly open the bolt identified with the yellow arrow and if you have a mechanical lift pump that has a lever on it, work the lever to deliver fuel to the injection pump until it is coming out the loosened bolt.
In case you dont have one, here is a link to an owner's manual.
From looking at the images in the manual it appears these tractors have a Simms injection pump.
Ford Tractor Models 2, 3, 4, and 5 Operator's / Service Manual
Here is a link to a youtube video describing a no fuel delivery situation with a Simms pump although it is for a 6 cyl the operating principles are the same.
lehman Diesel Injector Simms Minimec Shut off for Essex oil filled cam driven pump 1978 INTRO - YouTube
There will be other useful videos on youtube if you search and perhaps in one you will see what may have gone wrong with yours.
I read one post on another forum where the cause of the problem was in the cable pulling the fuel shut off not returning the pump to the run position.
Dave M7040
 
/ injection pump questions #20  
According to parts catalog Ford 4500 has a rotary CAV IP. I'll bet something under cover on these linkages is attached incorrectly. Is kill cable linkage in correct position?
 

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