I need a new BRIDGE!!!

[Tractor Seabee]

I like the idea of using the railroad flatbed, the site is about 20 miles from the railway station. Located beside the old bridge is a ford that we are now using. It works well unless there has been a heavy rain. We drive our SUVs across it and have had dump trucks come through there in the past. Hopefully we could get a concrete truck across there, and back.

I have permits from the Corps of Engineers and the Wildlife Commission for the repairs. Building this as a low water bridge that we know would flood is acceptable. One of the neighbors put in a swinging foot bridge a few years back that we use during floods. It is about 150' long and is above the flood mark.

Several posters wondered where you get a RR flat bed and how too haul. Depends how far you live from an industrial area that has a big salvage outfit. They buy these things and try to sell before scrapping out (labor). They can usaully haul for you on a big low boy machinery trailer. The RR car is no more than 10' wide so wide load permit is not required. Definitely a crane set unless you have a rig big enough to drag into place. A large track hoe would work nice to lift one end to drag off trailer and across the ground. Put rollers on top of sills and drag across. Just hard work and be careful. Length is the biggest hurdle for hauling. Don't build your piers till you know what you are getting so you can tailor to it. I doubt a standard 53' semi trailer frame will structurally support the propane truck. Check with your vendor on the weight. A trailer centers from fifth wheel to axels is some what shorter than the total length versus your sills being close to the ends. Pure logic. Sorry, I do not live close enough to sidewalk superintend. Lot's of luck, keep mus posted.

Ron

 

[LD1]

All good info so far.

But I have to ask, what have you done in the past. You said the propane truck has crossed this wooden bridge before If I am picturing it right, your span in 40', but you have a block/pier in the middle and that lessens the span of the lumber beams to 20' right?

I still would not want to drive across it. I dont like lumber for outdoor load-bearing structures. Because different species/grades have different strengths, knots and bad sections weaken it, plus it is hard to see if/when it starts to rot before it is too late. Steel is MUCH better IMO. Weak areas (rusting) can easily be spotted and addressed before its too late.

The RR flatbed sounds like a good Idea, if you can get one. IF not, it looks like you are going to need some sizable I-beams.

Either way you go, I would suggest meeting with an engineer. It would be well worth the money spent to get his advice. He can come out and actually take a look at what you have. I am sure there is certain guidelines (that he will know for your area) for footer/peir size and depth. Because what you have now (2' x 2' x 12') on each end doesnt sound like it is big enough (or deep enough) to handle the weight of the bridge + 40ton dumptrucks.

If you want an Idea of what you are in for, drive around in your county and look at bridges. Find one that is ~40' span and has a full 40T rating. Pull over. Look underneath. Make notes. Take pictures.

 

[Army grunt]

If your going to make it higher . Youll need to leghten it. How about a few 40 ft flatbed trailers?Strip all hard ware an redeck with oak 2 bys.Replace the center block with say the bottom part of a ceptick tank filled with stone& cement.The trailers are 8 ft wide so you could use 12 footers for decking. Allow 2 ft. overhang each side. put a ribbon board (bolted) say a 2x6 oak to hold a railling. also it will give you the feeling you wont fall offJust a thought.
Army Grunt

 

[ultrarunner]

On New Years I took a ride on the Swanton Pacific Railroad and it has a bridge designed by students at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo...

The trestle was very strong and yet built from lightweight steel members bolted together...

 

[DJ54]

Here are some pictures of a flatcar being used as a bridge on the Moonville RailTrail, a muscle powered only, RailTrail is SE Ohio. The railroad pulled all bridges when they abandoned the line. Thank goodness they left the abutments.

All we needed to do, is find something to fit the spans. We secured three flatcars from the Dept. of Energy. They donated them to us, being we are a non-profit org.

One of our members is a contractor, and charges us only cost on equipment and labor. No profit, so it keeps his guys working when things get slow.

Car was stripped of decking. He hauled it in on one of his tractor trailers. They used two smaller cranes, because of getting them into the remote location, and was actually too much for either one, when booming down to get it centered on the abutments.

 

[Rowdy Raven]

Hey folks, thanks so much for all the great ideas. I talked with some folks today about a flatcar. A 85' flatcar weighs 44k pounds and is offered for $22k plus delivery. I have talked with an engineer and he is going to come out and meet us at the site, I plan to talk with him about all the options. I'll keep you posted as to his suggestions and what we move to do. Again many thanks!

 

[strum456]

Hey folks, thanks so much for all the great ideas. I talked with some folks today about a flatcar. A 85' flatcar weighs 44k pounds and is offered for $22k plus delivery. I have talked with an engineer and he is going to come out and meet us at the site, I plan to talk with him about all the options. I'll keep you posted as to his suggestions and what we move to do. Again many thanks!

I have no idea what railroad cars sell for, but that seems pretty high for scrap price.

 

[jimmachinist]

I have no idea what railroad cars sell for, but that seems pretty high for scrap price.

I know there is an antique bridge for sale in meadville pa. Might be worth looking into

 

[beeforty]

Any of these in and around Last Chance Road, Swanton or Davenport?

Happy Valley area (Branciforte Dr) only in January of 1982 it wasn't so happy:laughing:

 

[beeforty]

On New Years I took a ride on the Swanton Pacific Railroad and it has a bridge designed by students at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo...

The trestle was very strong and yet built from lightweight steel members bolted together...

Don't want to appear negative to RR bridges but that Swanton trestle bridge was built to replace a railcar bridge that washed out in Jan '82. Now it's 2x? the lenght that it was. That's why I say make it high and anchor it good!! When they wash out they usually take out 1 or 2 banks and then you have more work and $$

 

[beeforty]

I have no idea what railroad cars sell for, but that seems pretty high for scrap price.

It may seem high, but hope fully it has not been overstressed and is just good for scrap metal. I don't know what their criteria is for when they scrap a car, cause you sure don't want it to fail on you. My neighbor had to have extra width added and railing put on his he put in.$$$$

 

[aczlan]

$22k seems a little high for a flatbed, but if that is what they run in your area, you are stuck with that price.
Looking online, I see $10-15k prices for box/hopper cars.

Aaron Z

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Found a study done in Iowa on using RR flact cars for bridges. Cal Trans has an emergency kit using RR flat cars for a freeway bridge. They used it on Interstate 5 when they had washout near Coalinga in the middle 90's.


http://www.iowadot.gov/operationsresearch/reports/reports_pdf/hr_and_tr/reports/tr421.pdf


David Kb7uns

 

[ultrarunner]

Don't want to appear negative to RR bridges but that Swanton trestle bridge was built to replace a railcar bridge that washed out in Jan '82. Now it's 2x? the lenght that it was. That's why I say make it high and anchor it good!! When they wash out they usually take out 1 or 2 banks and then you have more work and $$

Not at all and very timely subject...

The RR was shutdown from last years record rains... erosion to the bank.

To contain, they used rip-rap and then got word they lacked the necessary permits... so the rip-rap had to come out and the non-profit spent $5000 on several permits and hundreds of man-hours all the while more bank was eroding...

In the end, they got permission to stabilize the bank with rip-rap and opened for New Years...

Left a bad taste for the many volunteers and diverted scarce funds...

I have friends in the area... they said last season's rains made the 7 mile dirt/gravel road impassible at times... this year, it has been so dry that a Honda Civic has no problem...

I say build it strong because you might not get the chance to build it again...

 

[ultrarunner]

Found a study done in Iowa on using RR flact cars for bridges. Cal Trans has an emergency kit using RR flat cars for a freeway bridge. They used it on Interstate 5 when they had washout near Coalinga in the middle 90's.


http://www.iowadot.gov/operationsresearch/reports/reports_pdf/hr_and_tr/reports/tr421.pdf


David Kb7uns

I drove over those bridges several times... traffic would slow going across and then back up to speed...

It definitely kept the wheels rolling...

 

[Rowdy Raven]

And now the update.....
Today we met at the bridge. Present were the land owner, a friend who runs a commercial bridge building company, a bridge builder who specializes in rr flatcars, and a few other good friends. I really need to post some pix here so that you get a better idea what we're up against. We discussed numerous options, going high, going low, I beams, H beams, locust stringers, and rr flatcars.

The landowner feels strongly about building a low water bridge. This is due in part to the tremendous flooding that we get and that building a high water bridge would be $$$$$ expensive. The existing low water bridge was built in 1946 and the stringers have never washed out.

Thus, at the end we agreed that the best approach was to put a 60' rr flatcar across the stream resting it on H beam pilings encased in concrete on each side. The builder will provide us with a turn key proposal and his initial thought was it would be in the 20k range. I will let you know when I get the actual proposal. All in all a great day.

 

[Hollow]

Glad everything seems to be working out! :thumbsup:

 

[Oliver1655]

One important point you stated during your initial description was the upstream side of the bridge was lower than the down stream side. This was done to have the water flow push down on the bridge helping to hold it in place. I hope your group has recognized this and plan to do this with the replacement. One of the problems with bridges floating off is the water being able to "lift" the bridges because the upstream edge is level or higher. :thumbsup:

 

[jimmysisson]

They must have discussed this during your assessment meeting, but I wonder what caused the central concrete abutment to fail. Did it get eroded so wasn't evenly supported? It didn't sound very large, but sat there for many decades.
Glad you're on your way to a solution. Great to have friends in the bridge business!
Jim

 

[jimgerken]

Wow. Ambitious endeavor. I love to build stuff and would find this a great project to undertake. However, I am not willing to pay for something that may be the local government's responsibility. Have you tried sitting in at the local township meetings and present a case for them to take the project? Probably it is way more money than they could come up with, so it would have to be adopted by the State. But you'd still want to start with the Township and get their approval, etc. If there are homes on the other side of this bridge and they are taxed, it seems like you have a case for public funds. the tax assessor could be your friend in this case. They don't really want to loose the tax revenue, but if you can't get to your house, well, it sort of adds up to a government job to me. I probably don't understand the whole situation though.