Hydraulic Pump Dead?

[Iplayfarmer]

I went out to move some snow yesterday afternoon. It has been below zero for a week or so, and it finally warmed up to 25 degrees. The tractor fired right up, but I had nothing for hydraulics.

I've started this little Massey 1215 in sub zero temperatures before. The hydraulics are sluggish at first in cold temps, but there's at least something. This time there was nothing. I checked the fluid...it was fine. I let the tractor run for a few minutes just to top of the battery, etc., and still nothing. The hydro transmission works; but the loader, power steering, and 3 pt. are dead.

Last time I used it was about 3 weeks ago, and everything worked fine.

I plowed the snow with the 4-wheeler. I won't be able to do anything with the tractor until at least Wednesday.

What's the worst case scenario?

 

[kennyd]

Worst:
You pump is dead...

Probable:
You have moisture in your fluid and it is frozen.

Why not post this in the hydraulics forum?

 

[J_J]

Iplayfarmer,

Can you tell if the pump is turning at all. It may have twisted the shaft off if it was frozen. Do you have any leaks around the pump?

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I agree with Kenny. Ice in the hyd system. Get it thawed and change the fluid and filter.
Bill

 

[Soundguy]

that or loss of prime from an air leak / shrunk oring.

soundguy

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Water is heavier than oil and will sink to the bottom of your tank, that's where the suction hose for your pump connects. If there's ice in the tank, you ain't sucking no oil. Without some help, it will take a while to thaw the ice out. Try removing the drain plug from the tank. If nothing comes out, there ya' go.

 

[J_J]

Water is heavier than oil and will sink to the bottom of your tank, that's where the suction hose for your pump connects. If there's ice in the tank, you ain't sucking no oil. Without some help, it will take a while to thaw the ice out. Try removing the drain plug from the tank. If nothing comes out, there ya' go.

For obvious reasons, I am going to disagree with most of the above. Most hyd fluid has detergents in them and as such, any water that gets in the hydraulic fluid may go to the bottom, but as soon as the water/fluid is sucked up and blended by the pump, you now have a new combination of water/fluid mix. I do agree that if you pour a pint of water in a tank of hyd fluid, the water, being heavier than hyd fluid will go to the bottom. That water will probably freeze at 32 degrees, but after being mixed, who knows. Maybe hyd fluid with ice crystals in it.

The suction outlet to my pump is about 3 in off the bottom for obvious reasons. If there is water there, you do not want it in the system. You also do not want to suck up any crud off the bottom of the tank/reservoir.

I would say that the cleanest tank/reservoir would be the hyd system with a return line filter, and a filtered filler cap.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

For obvious reasons, I am going to disagree with most of the above. Most hyd fluid has detergents in them and as such, any water that gets in the hydraulic fluid may go to the bottom, but as soon as the water/fluid is sucked up and blended by the pump, you now have a new combination of water/fluid mix. I do agree that if you pour a pint of water in a tank of hyd fluid, the water, being heavier than hyd fluid will go to the bottom. That water will probably freeze at 32 degrees, but after being mixed, who knows. Maybe hyd fluid with ice crystals in it.

The suction outlet to my pump is about 3 in off the bottom for obvious reasons. If there is water there, you do not want it in the system. You also do not want to suck up any crud off the bottom of the tank/reservoir.

I would say that the cleanest tank/reservoir would be the hyd system with a return line filter, and a filtered filler cap.

Gotta love these guys that follow me around and look for any reason to contradict me.
Didn't disagree with anyone else that said it froze up, just me. Didn't post anything about disagreeing with the concept until I posted. Please, get a life.

 

[Soundguy]

the water and oil will mix into an emulsion once it makes it thru the pump.. much of that emulsion will be 'stabil'.. but after setting, some of the water will fall out. An easy test it to check the dipstick to look for the telltale milkshake look.. or to pull the drain plug and unscrew just a hair to see if a few drips of water seep out before oil starts coming out... pretty common check...

ditto on the filters.. clean is best..

soundguy

 

[oildoc]

Whatever you do, don't run the tractor anymore. If your pump is getting no oil to the suction (for whatever reason) running it without oil will burn it up. That being said, it's possible you could have water in your oil, although it would take a fair amount to actually freeze up the suction. If there is water in it, you may have a relief valve that's frozen in the cracked position and causing bypass. That much water will expand and can easily offset springs. Your cheapest bet is to tow it into a heated shop and warm it up for a few days. Then start poking around. See if your getting any return oil from the main valve. if so the valve is bypassing oil and you need to look at your relief.

Many hydraulic systems have suction screens if you have any moisture in the oil and all tractors have varrying degrees no matter how often you change the oil due to thermal gain and loss thus condensation. This moisture will form into icy particles and can clog an inlet screen and if there are enough (you'd need a bunch of moisture) can clog an inlet without a screen.

Good luck.

 

[IH3444]

Kinda the same thing happen with the old International backhoe. Was extremely cold for several weeks, then warmed up to the low 30's. Neighbor need a small hole dug, so off I went with the hoe. After just a few scoops the hoe stopped working. I was abit alarmed, neighbor helped me get the hoe back up by lifting with the FEL bucket of his JD tractor. I drove back to the barn, thinking it was water in the sump also. Drained, no water. Installed drain plug, filled back up with hydraulic fluid. Began inspecting rear hoe controls. NADA. Let hoe sit till spring. Much warmer temps, hoe worked fine. Only thing I can deduce is very cold hydraulic oil had "poped off" the safety relief valve, and valve stayed poped off due to excessive pressure caused by very cold fluid. Everything went back to normal after temps warmed into the 40's overnight for several weeks. Lesson....DON'T PANIC.

 

[Scotty370]

Just wondering......Could a guy put a magnetic(?) block heater on the resevoir tank? Sorta like a oilpan heater? ~Scotty

 

[Soundguy]

I know guys that use a magnetic heater block onthe oil pan, and hyd sumps, plus a trickle charger on the bat, plus a coolant heater.. all setup on timers to come on about an hour or two before he needs the tractor in the morning. ever lil'bit helps..

soundguy

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I have had my hydraulics freeze because of moisture and it was only in the mid 20,s. Ice crystals form in the oil and plug the filter. I dont think people in warmer climates have a lot of experience with this.
Bill

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like the worst case scenario is the broken hydro pump, but more likely it is some type of issue with icing. I'm glad I posted because I would have just started pulling parts off to look for broken stuff.

I guess the next step is to somehow get it into the garage and point the 350,000 BTU torpedo heater at it for a while.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

It stayed above freezing for most of the day today. I started the tractor when I got home from work, and everything works just fine now.

Is there anything I can do to keep this from happening again?

 

[Soundguy]

add some transtune seafoam to the hydro oil, circulate, drain, flush with a couple gallons oil and diesel mixed, drain, then refill with good, new, clean oil. ( and do it on a regular service schedule.. IE.. preventative maintenance.. )

soundguy

 

[Thumper & Buttercup]

Glad it all started working for you.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

add some transtune seafoam to the hydro oil, circulate, drain, flush with a couple gallons oil and diesel mixed, drain, then refill with good, new, clean oil. ( and do it on a regular service schedule.. IE.. preventative maintenance.. )

soundguy

You make it sound so easy

I am probably due for a hydro fluid change, but I'm by no means behind schedule. I haven't flushed it. It sounds like a lot of cost for the extra oil/diesel, etc. but I suppose it beats buying new hydro pump.

 

[Soundguy]

Cost? what's cheaper.. a pail of oil..or the pump plus downtime.

My big fords hold somthing like 13g of hydro oil.. and it usually comes out darn good looking.. but it's cheape rthan a 1000$ pump, plus flusing all the lines and cleaning all the valves AND then changing the oil and filter.

soundugy