Oil & Fuel Hydraulic and Motor oil questions for 2210D

[California]

But that Benz isn't typical of tractor rpm's. From my Operator's Manual:

 

[bmaverick]

You cannot get a 2% reduction in fuel usage (sorta like the effect on cranking speed I looked at; probably the square root of viscosity) and get a 50% increase in wear. If more wear is there, the fuel economy credit won't be there.

Has there ever been a test of 30w vs. 40w in heavy diesel engines?

I measured this fuel economy credit on a 240D Benz with high mileage on it. Typically, it would be at around 3,000 rpm, much like a tractor engine at 540 PTO speed.

RalphVa,

I have not a clue what you are taking about with this 2% you keep bringing up. The entire question was NOT about fuel economy. Nobody gives a rats hoot about fuel economy with a tractor. We all do under 20mph, lots of stopping and going and lots of wasted idling for a DIESEL.

So saving 2% or if possible 10% is of no concern to us. And if anyone is running the tractor at 3,000 for a hard and long duration, they are going to hurt that compact tractor engine like no tomorrow. Engine rebuild time. It doesn't matter what oil grade was used.

Seems like you are too narrowly minded focused on something other than the real question in this thread.

One can not apply passenger vehicle oil grades to Agriculture machines. It's a different world.

 

[CoyPatton]

Diesels are diesels. People just think that tractor engine work harder because they hear them. Car engines are so insulated for noise that you don't hear them. They're working just as hard.

I disagree that diesels are diesels!
Just like not all gas engines are the same!
And the work load required if any engine effects its long term performance. Frequent on off cycles are typically harder on engines as more severe wear happens at start up and shut down.

 

[bmaverick]

I disagree that diesels are diesels!
Just like not all gas engines are the same!
And the work load required if any engine effects its long term performance. Frequent on off cycles are typically harder on engines as more severe wear happens at start up and shut down.

Here's the obvious answer why 5W30 can not be used in all seasons up north where temps will vary widely.

The VW diesel example is for a passenger vehicle. Close tolerances. Additionally, the piston diameter, rings, head design, and the shorter stroke can work with the 5W30 all year around.

VW and other EU diesel engines have different piston ring packs too! That is why I mentioned VW German engineering ISO/TUV tolerances and the Yanmar tractor diesel being JIS/ISO.

Understanding How Engines Consume Oil
https://www.memoparts.com/img/cms/Documents/Piston Failue.pdf

And to crown the discussion, here is the engineering science on piston rings and oil passages.

Piston Rings: types of piston rings | compression & oil control rings

Piston and Piston Rings

Not so with semi's and Ag machines like tractors. These diesels have DIFFERENCE RINGS to allow the oil to transverse and keep things lubricated in a different way. These machines have such a long stroke too, in the summer 5W30 would not be flowing well enough to keep the upper part of the engine coated long enough on up and down strokes, even worse when at high rpm's.

And the stroke being loooooonger. Basically it has to move FASTER, thus the thinner oil in hot heat can't flow and remain at the top of the engine.
Stroker Science: Piston Speed, Rod Angle, and Increased Displacement Explained.

A winter oil like 5W30 in hot summer temps will break the oil rings on a piston head. From there, the piston will have side head wear and the rod bearings will then wear out or basically explode on the CAM shaft. Next, the piston head now has the ability to float higher and hit the head.

5W30 is just fine for WINTER and cold environment use. 10W30 or SAE30 for warm and hot summer use for these compact tractors.

For old school American Iron tractors, 15W40 works just fine.

The last thing we need to hear is someone pushing 5W20 or 0W30 or 0W20 for our machines. YIKES.

 

[RalphVa]

I think the big diesel people should finance a comparison of say 0w30 or 5w30 with 15w40 to measure wear and fuel economy. There was a fuel economy study done but not wear. Don't think big truck engines are really different from a diesel tractor's or diesel car's. What is really different is the slow-moving diesel engines like in ships. As long as they have a pressurized oil system, they're all about the same.

You should not be wasting money changing from 5wxx to 10w or 15w from winter to summer. A 0wxx or 5wxx oil can be used year round. They just have a much flatter viscosity-temperature line than 10wxx or 15wxx oils.

Ralph

 

[CoyPatton]

Here's the obvious answer why 5W30 can not be used in all seasons up north where temps will vary widely.

The VW diesel example is for a passenger vehicle. Close tolerances. Additionally, the piston diameter, rings, head design, and the shorter stroke can work with the 5W30 all year around.

VW and other EU diesel engines have different piston ring packs too! That is why I mentioned VW German engineering ISO/TUV tolerances and the Yanmar tractor diesel being JIS/ISO.

Understanding How Engines Consume Oil
https://www.memoparts.com/img/cms/Documents/Piston Failue.pdf

And to crown the discussion, here is the engineering science on piston rings and oil passages.

Piston Rings: types of piston rings | compression & oil control rings

Piston and Piston Rings

Not so with semi's and Ag machines like tractors. These diesels have DIFFERENCE RINGS to allow the oil to transverse and keep things lubricated in a different way. These machines have such a long stroke too, in the summer 5W30 would not be flowing well enough to keep the upper part of the engine coated long enough on up and down strokes, even worse when at high rpm's.

And the stroke being loooooonger. Basically it has to move FASTER, thus the thinner oil in hot heat can't flow and remain at the top of the engine.
Stroker Science: Piston Speed, Rod Angle, and Increased Displacement Explained.

A winter oil like 5W30 in hot summer temps will break the oil rings on a piston head. From there, the piston will have side head wear and the rod bearings will then wear out or basically explode on the CAM shaft. Next, the piston head now has the ability to float higher and hit the head.

5W30 is just fine for WINTER and cold environment use. 10W30 or SAE30 for warm and hot summer use for these compact tractors.

For old school American Iron tractors, 15W40 works just fine.

The last thing we need to hear is someone pushing 5W20 or 0W30 or 0W20 for our machines. YIKES.

You are preaching to the choir when you replied to me! Realize I was calling him out on his statement that diesel engines are all the same. That is about as stupid as saying males and females are the same.
Not for me!

 

[bmaverick]

I think the big diesel people should finance a comparison of say 0w30 or 5w30 with 15w40 to measure wear and fuel economy. There was a fuel economy study done but not wear. Don't think big truck engines are really different from a diesel tractor's or diesel car's. What is really different is the slow-moving diesel engines like in ships. As long as they have a pressurized oil system, they're all about the same.

You should not be wasting money changing from 5wxx to 10w or 15w from winter to summer. A 0wxx or 5wxx oil can be used year round. They just have a much flatter viscosity-temperature line than 10wxx or 15wxx oils.

Ralph

Seems like you need to learn more about oil application rather than just what the oil is made up with. Your thinking is way off base and very flawed.

Pressurized oil system.
Last time I looked, my machine has a breather hose. The modern engines have a breather cap with a crankcase filter. We do not use a broiler system for it to exceed and EXPLODE.

Should anyone follow your advice, are you willing to pay for any engine damages their machine would encounter?
Your wisdom is surely flawed. You do error in your judgement.

 

[RalphVa]

RalphVa,

I have not a clue what you are taking about with this 2% you keep bringing up. The entire question was NOT about fuel economy. Nobody gives a rats hoot about fuel economy with a tractor. We all do under 20mph, lots of stopping and going and lots of wasted idling for a DIESEL.

So saving 2% or if possible 10% is of no concern to us. And if anyone is running the tractor at 3,000 for a hard and long duration, they are going to hurt that compact tractor engine like no tomorrow. Engine rebuild time. It doesn't matter what oil grade was used.

Seems like you are too narrowly minded focused on something other than the real question in this thread.

One can not apply passenger vehicle oil grades to Agriculture machines. It's a different world.

Nope 0w30 or 5w30 diesel oil will not harm a tractor's engine, AND it will give a tad reduction in fuel usage. Plus, it'll give your top end more protection in getting pressurized oil to it almost instantly vs. probably a few seconds for something like 15w40, particularly in cold weather.

 

[bmaverick]

Nope 0w30 or 5w30 diesel oil will not harm a tractor's engine, AND it will give a tad reduction in fuel usage. Plus, it'll give your top end more protection in getting pressurized oil to it almost instantly vs. probably a few seconds for something like 15w40, particularly in cold weather.

OK, this person is just all talk and not discussion. I'm adding them to the IGNORE MEMBER list. They behave just like those Virtual AI assistants on websites that are meaningless. Never thought I would have to ever do this here on TBN.

 

[CoyPatton]

Personally, I put him in ignore category with the statement from him that diesel engine us a diesel engine.
I bet those German engineers from VW are thinking stop yesterday fool!