hp needed for genny?

[JB4310]

RFB,
From the look of both the tiger power and the IMD sites, AVR is only available on the 10 and 15 kw's, then it jumps up to the 45kw. what is that 6420 cvt, some kind of shuttle shift or power reverser?

Frank,
Mine is definetly a 2 pole head, as far as the 3 pt carrier goes, like you said once its on, you know it's not going to move much out of sync with the tractor.
That tiger power site is the best I've seen and has a lot of helpful info there, I don't know how long you had the unit but when they just give you a new one off the shelf that's a big confidence booster.
I am also the neighborhood helpful hillbilly, which helps them tolerate me running my small contracting bussiness out of my back yard.
As far as getting a new forum, I've tried that on my diesel truck sites with no luck, I think it takes an act of Conress.

Well I've got my new hertz meters today, so I'm going out to do some more experimenting, hope I don't blow something up!!!
I'll take a bunch more pictures, if for nothing else, entertainments sake.

 

[RonMar]

RonMar, I like that fly wheeler, are they really as nice sounding as they say? whats the max rpm's 600-800? or is it even less than that? I did a lot of reading on those so called third world engines, stories like villagers working on 30 year old motors with tools made out of animal bones.

Yes, they are very pleasant to listen to. With my pulley to flywheel size, the engine runs about 630 RPM for a 60HZ output. It only needs basic hand tools to work on and I can have it stripped down for a rebuild if necessary in about an hour(that is piston, cylinder and liner out on the workbench). The lister CS series after which these engines were based, were known for their longevity and years of trouble free operation. This clone isn't quite up to the original production standards, but with a carefull measured setup, they can run many thousands of hours between overhauls. If you go to youtube or google video and search "listeroid", you will find a bunch of running videos.

 

[RFB]

frankc,

Can you elaborate on the advantages/rational for the 4 pole versus 2 pole issue? Is it the general issue of rpm's (as a mechanical advantage) or is there also an electrical factor to the choice?

Also, your points correct are regarding the cart versus carry-all choice. I was looking for a method that would accomplish the stability and alignment that a 3 point provides, and the roll-out/hook-up ease of the cart style. My current mental iteration is a 3 point carry-all type platform with industrial grade casters attached to telescoping legs on four corners(sort of like a trailer tongue jack): attach the carry-all, lift and align, then set the wheel length.

 

[RFB]

JB4310,

IVT is Deere's version of a continuously variable transmission(CVT).

I spoke with Tiger Power today. The 20 and 30 are also AVR and will be available in the 4 pole 1800rpm, are outdoor weather-rated (drip proof, not immersion-proof), and a 5 year warranty.

 

[RFB]

charlz,

North of.

 

[CamshaftLF]

Frank: my first Tiger Power unit was flickering the lights pretty good called the dist up and they sent me the new version of 10kw w/AVR, the first unit looked like the IMD but the second one looks like IMD 100kw a lot bigger but still labeled 10kw. I was told they are phasing out the old style. they replaced it no ? asked. GREAT customer service and pleasant to talk with!!!!!!!

 

[frankc]

RFB, in regards to 2-pole or 4-pole;

My little brain simply can't get past 1/2 the revolutions of the 4-pole should mean twice the life. Whether that pan's out or not I guess we'll see.

Also, when dealing with the concept of turning this thing from a 540rpm pto drive, I'd just guess that the HorsePower cost of multiplying mechanically a 3.3 ratio climb to get 1800rpms for the 4-pole costs Less than multiplying it by 6.6 to climb to 3600rpms for the 2-pole. Although, no one is ever going to confuse me with a mechanical engineer and I couldn't begin to justify those thoughts, lots of trying to put HP to the pavement experience says I can't be all wrong in my thinking.

Cam, Yeah the tiger-power guys really are easy to deal with! You actually get the feeling that there are still business people that want their customers to be happy!!!!!!! I think were both lucky though that we live so close to the source of the product. Couldn't tell you how well dealing thru a distributor would work out.

Wasn't aware that they've changed their lineup, my 30Kw has the AVR setup and the digital Frequency gauge as it will only be 2 years old this coming May. Actually my first gen head would be 2 years old this coming May, this one won't be TWO till Sept. How lucky was that that I bought this thing 4-5 weeks before actually needing it for 4 straight days???? I grew up within 1 mile of where I live now, (farms back then!) and in my whole life we never lost electric longer that 2 days. Usually 8-24 hrs at the most! What's really weird is I happened to pickup a used Jinma Chipper 3 days before the storm hit, and I used that chipper for 3 straight days cleaning up from the storm. Sometimes I scare myself!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mentioning that, obviously I have a great wife to put up with all my EXPERIMENTS and toys! Since that day, she doesn't ask why I need more than one machine, cause we were easily the most functional household within many miles. SO, my message to everyone who says buy a separate generator so you can use your tractor during an emergency is: BUY A PTO generator so you can justify to the wife why you need more than one tractor!!!
Frank

POWER GENERATION CATEGORY ----- Please??

 

[Mickey_Fx]

Ron, thanks for the pic of your lister/ST setup. By looking at it I'd almost bet you've visited the UtterPower site.

A little food for thought for those thinking about building/buying a genset.

* Bearing capacity is relaetd to bearing speed. Slower speed means higher capacity or longer life for a given speed.

* KISS is a good guide to keep in mind when looking for things like a genset. When you really need that genset, reliability and easy of repair beats fancy smancy every time. Brushless designs are something you can't repair in short order.

* If you are building a pto genset and have to build your own drive, a 4 pole 1800 rpm gen head is lower cost to built than a 2 pole 3600 rpm gen head. Also in building a genset and drive, one can always include a flywheel to help overcome those large transient loads.

* The ST gen heads that have been mentioned are simple in design with only the oversized, std size, bearings and a set of long wearing brushes that possibly could fail. Many of the ST gennys come with a spare set of brushes. Brushes can be replaced in a few mins, 5-10. With these gennys coming from China, qlty can vary but some importers are buying these with higher qlty components.

 

[JB4310]

Back with a little more real world testing with my 10 kw, put the new LED Hz/volt meter in and made some good observations, this is just the 2nd time fooling around with this type of whole building back feed repower set up, done in my small shop which is normally powered by a separate 100 amp service (not part of the houses system).
The shop is a good place for testing, since I have some moderately heavy loads to experiment with, a 5kw heater, 15 amp-5hp air compressor, 1kw work lights, bench grinders, drill press, etc etc.
First of all and maybe most importantly, the difference between the 1980 23 pto hp Ford 1700 and the 2003 25.5 pto hp JD 4310 is very noticeable, so different tractors are going to react differently even though they may be in the same hp class, The Ford could only handle about 3.5kw from no load before manual up throttle was needed to keep Hz at the 60 green light, the 5 kw heater was a little trickier, the Hz dropped to 58 or less and required more fuel, had maybe max 8 kw load total, the rpms stayed right at the 540 setting and the tractor seemed to handle it no problem once dialed in. the compressor would not start until I dropped pressure to about 25 psi.
shutting off the big loads is also a little nerve racking as the output really spikes.

The JD handled the challenge much much better, almost full recovery with 5 kw draw from no load and will start the compressor at a normal on cycle around 90 psi. the JD put the meter in the green at below the 540 setting on the tach and sounded very nice not loud at all.
I learned a simple trick, to set the no load volts as high as possible before the Hz goes over out of the green (see picture) by doing so, once the load is applied there is already a buffer there, I know this is not a brain storm, just a simple logical thing to do, but by doing this in unison with the JD's superior governor, there required very little additional human input.
I'll paste some pics,

 

[Rara Avis]

Tractor-Driven Generators: Producing Quality Power

 

[frankc]

Paul C. THANK YOU. That is easily the best (most complete) article I've read to date.

JB. Looks like your fine tuning your setup just great. I'd be curious to know how your monitoring your current draw when applying load. One of the reasons I did most of my testing at lower draws was because the Kill-A-Watt meter can only handle 15a/120V loads thru it. I guess I could spring for a clamp-on meter that measures AMP draw thru a line and handles much higher draws, but the ones I've seen that can do this for 220V are quite expensive. Does anyone have any recommendations for an affordable (ie. $50 or under) meter that has the ability to measure draw up to say 30A @ 220V????
JB, I like your 3ph cart better every time I see it. It really is a pain in the Azz to get the PTO shaft real straight with the wheeled cart, your setup although not as mobile, looks like it would take up less storage space and certainly be easier to line everything up. Although, I bet getting that PTO shaft hooked up with your I-match setup is quite interesting to watch. I'd probably be mumbling some illiterate phrases while doing that!
Frank

 

[RonMar]

That is a great article Paul.

JB4310
That "Trick" you described about setting it near the high side of acceptable under no load is exactly how I setup my genset and a good way to configure a mechanically governed generator. 62HZ and 125VAC no load yields me 60/120 at half load and 58/115 at my full rated(sustainable) load. The freq/volt relationship only applies to non AVR gensets as an AVR will control the voltage and break up this relationship. But the RPM/frequency will still droop as the load increases.

Because of this relationship, I can easilly monitor generator load by taking the Killawatt meter inside and plugging it into any outlet and watcing the frequency. Since it is such a small generator, we have to guage our useage, so when cooking, the Killawatt gets plugged into the outlet by the kitchen sink and it is quite easy to monitor what effect our appliance useage is having on the generator load. IMO, no one who is making, or contemplating making their own power should be without a Killawatt. It is the handiest little device I have found for monitoring/controlling a genset.

Another issue with using a tractor as a power source is the range of authority the manufacturer gave the governor. Ideally a generator governor should have full throttle authority, but some manufacturers may have limited this authority to help the operator know when the load on the machine changes and forcing the operator to make a throttle change to maintain RPM. This is similar to most automotive cruise controls which do not have full throttle authority. They will start to loose speed on really steep hills as they can't apply enough throttle to maintain speed. You as the operator do have full throttle authority and can step on the gas and use all the avaialable HP to maintain speed up the steep hill. the trick JB mentioned will help to compensate for this, but the larger the generator is in relation to the tractor, the greater this problem may be. Some tractors may have more throttle authority than others but this is where a large tractor would operate a smaller genset in a more stable fashion as the governors available HP control is greater than the generators potential HP demand. Unfortunatly this is not as efficient.

FrankC
Here is a link to a few just search "clamp on amp meters" or "amp clamp meters"
Clamp meter | clamp on amp meter
You can get the full meter type, or a probe that plugs into a digital volt/ohm meter and displays amps measured in the form of millivolts on the DVM. I have both types, and the amp-clamp probe is a little smaller and easier to get into panel wireing, but ties up the volt meter when I need to take voltage readings at thesame time. I need another standalone metr now anyway as the meter movement on my older one broke a few weeks ago.

Did I understand that you were running your generator without it's frame being attached to your tractor 3PH? I would not reccomend this as a sudden high load such as a shorted circuit or a failed bearing or gearbox could cause a sudden mechanical load on the generator and cause its platform to shift or tip and do real bad things mechanically to that spinning driveshaft. Lotta available torque in a PTO shaft(they occasionally pretzel humans and rip arms and legs off) I don't think I would feel comfortable running a PTO generator not physically attached to the tractor or securely bolted to concrete...

 

[frankc]

Thanks for the links Ron, and the concerns. But I must have written something illogical in one of my posts to give you that impression. I ALWAYS keep the trailer connected to my tractor via the draw hitch. The tiger-power trailers are very well made, tires are full size 14" load-rated for towing on steel wagon wheels. The hubs and bearings and axle are tagged for 3500lb capacity!! BUT,
its still just a wagon pin setup, so its not like there is a ball mount to hold the trailer tight. I like JB's skid, more compact, height and side/side alignment should be easier to adjust and since it's attached to the 3ph, can't really shift that much under load.

Frank

 

[JB4310]

Paul, Thanks for tha informative link.

Frank,
I'm simply using the ratings on the equipment to calculate draw, I know I'm not going over on any thing except maybe the compressor, 15 amps X 3 at start is over the rating but should be within the surge, took the cover off today and see it will be easy to wire it for 240 volt, I think that would make it easier to start and maybe save me some money when normally operated??? The 5kw heater is 240V so that's balanced between the 2 hot legs.
The meter in the link is what I want, and will mount it to my homes panel board between main panel and a new 50 amp outlet, it''s for permanent install but I guess you could use it as a tester, or as Ron explained in another forum you could split the cable and measure the individual hots with a regular current tester, I have a multi meter that I can barely figure out and don't own a current tester now but maybe I'll start looking for a cheap one.

Reliance Controls 50-Amp Indoor Wattage Meter MB125 @ Electric Generators Direct.com - Your Online Portable Power and Home Standby Generator Superstore

As far as the 3 pt carrier goes, mine is not as heavy as yours but I think it's more mobile when on the tractor and when off can be stored up on a rack when not used, this is the first pto operated piece of equipment I've ever owned so I don't have anything to compare to but it could not be easier, just hook up to 3 pt and connect shaft, the shaft takes all of maybe 10 seconds it is short and not heavy, with the imatch you don't even have to get off the seat to pick it up and move it.

Ron,
I guess I'm learning something, I'm kinda thinking maybe I should have gotten the 15 kw but we so rarely loose power I think the 10 should be fine, might be nice to have a little more for the duty factor, I would probably still go with the non avr though but not sure, the fluorescent flicker a little, should that be expected?? would avr solve this? I want a killawatt meter, what's the best source? couldn't find one in any store. I got a plug in Hz/volt meter from the gen company for no charge and I have the old analog Hz meter that works fine out of the generator, the company is sending me a box and an ac cord for that, so I'll be able to monitor from a couple of strategic locations in the house which I think is a necessity, alot of that storey that Paul linked to was about the problems caused by the fact that many of those older setups had no meters what so ever, there were alot of older looking equipment there, some of them were huge.

This is a pic of their plug in meter, which is the same as the internal unit, only 1 light to indicate 120 volts, it's pretty nice and simple.

 

[Mickey_Fx]

Don't know how you feel about harbor freight but they have 2 models of low cost clamp-on multimeters. The highest priced one is $20 and has ranges that more than cover the needs here. They also sale kill-a-watt meters. Thank the price on these are about $30 and seems to be close to what I've seen listed from several locations.

 

[RFB]

Just a quick than you to you guys for all of the information and experience. It's a gold mine.

 

[RonMar]

JB4310
As mickey mentioned, Harbor freight sells them in their stores, but I don't think they list them on their website. A good thing is that the killawatt allows you to do long term power studies on appliances such as how much power is this freezer using per month, and look for hidden loads(freezer is off but still pulls 6Watts). It also gives you power factor information for the inductive loads. A bad motor run cap can skew the power factor when running and appear to use more power than it actually is which costs you money. There is a newer model out that has an internal battery backup. The old model looses it's recorded info if you have a power fail or unplug it before you read all the info.

As for loads, get everything you can onto 240VAC. If your generator is 10KW capacity TOTAL, that means 5KW per 120V leg. Based on the physical size of your generator, I would guess it does not have much more surge capacity beyond 10KW(smaller windings, less copper?). The surge load of a large 120V compressor starting is probably pulling that 120V leg way down into the dirt(browning it out). As the voltage drops, the motor has to pull more current to compensate for it and the generator can't provide enough to overcome the air pressure load. A 240V config would pull half the current for the same KW.

I have a similar problem when running a microwave on my available 3KW. It is a constant 1.3KW and is my largest 120V "necessary" appliance, which really knocks the voltage down on that leg(UPS on the entertainment system starts to beep). I bought a 3KW 240-120V transformer and I am making up a special circuit to power the reefer/microwave and get their load spread across the 240 to help balance things out on the generator. You can do a lot with very little, It is all about energy management

Frank
No, I didn't get the impression that your generator was on a trailer attached to your tractor. Now that I understand how it is configured, Your setup sounds fine. If it was setting unattached, I was envisioning it doing a "stoppie" if somehow the gearbox or rotor locked.

 

[JB4310]

Thanks Mickey, I ordered the killawatt meter today from harbor freight, CT is one of only 5 states that they don't have a store, so I really didn't know much about them, though I have heard the name before, cost $40.00 with the shipping.

Ron, thanks for the explanation on the governors authority thing, that helps me understand it better.

We had a good discussion here, but I think that's the problem with having a separate category for generators, I know alot of people have gennys here but once glory of learning all about your new equipment wears out, there's not much to talk about until a new guy comes along and needs to learn, like I did.
But like I think it was Frank that suggested a broader category that I believe should include alternate energy supply, inverters as well as generators, would be an interesting and active topic.
I was thinking today that after food-clothing and shelter, electricity has now, in the last 150 years or so become the next basic necessity, and we really take it for granted that it's always gonna be there, I know I take it for granted, on the rare occurrences we loose power (just had one 2 weeks ago for about 4 hours) I go from room to room turning on the switches and can't wrap my head around the fact the power is not there as usual.
I grew up in an unpampered environment, so I can handle a little hardship but you should see my 3 kids, who have a pretty good lifestyle, when the power goes out, they sit around like Zombies, thinking they're gonna die.
I have not had the guts to power up the house yet, have to get a few things in order first, I'll pipe back up when I do, as I'm sure I'll have some questions/comments.

 

[Soundguy]

Someone is advertising a 20kw PTO generator for about $1300 in the local paper. Seems like a decent price, but how much tractor does a generator that size need? It's way more generator than I need for backup, but more power is often nice.

as a 'soft' number.. figure 2 pto hp per kw.

technically it is less.. but once you figure in variables.. the 2hp per kw number is 'safer'.

never hurts to have too much hp.. or too much generation capacity.

IE.. a 20kw gen on a 10kw capable machine just means you won't ever thermally overload the head.

having 50 hp available on a 7kw genny just means you won't ever bog the tractor down with the genny at max load.

I got a 12.5kw genny from northern tool

i paid about 1k$ for it and am happy.

soundguy

 

[John_Mc]

How lucky was that that I bought this thing 4-5 weeks before actually needing it for 4 straight days???? ... What's really weird is I happened to pickup a used Jinma Chipper 3 days before the storm hit, and I used that chipper for 3 straight days cleaning up from the storm. Sometimes I scare myself!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just don't go out and buy a defibrilator