House Heating - Which Fuel?

[adjusterr]

In my opinion, go with wood first. If you have no woodlot check with your local woodsman, you can probably buy poles from him delivered and you can work up the wood. I pay approx.$350. for a tri- axle load of oak and locust. Natural gas would be second. I have a heat pump for backup and A/C but it does get pricey.

 

[sawduster98]

Our rural property did not have natural gas which would have been my first choice. I chose geo-thermal and the turn-key system cost $17k (before the 30% rebate from the gov). The geo is extremely efficient until the temp gets to single digits at which point the electric aux heat kicks in. For backup and supplemental heat I have a coal stoker stove in the basement which uses less than a 5gal bucket of coal a day and can heat the entire house if needed. I pay $229 for the 1 ton of coal I need per year! I did the wood thing for many years and got sick of all the extra work. my .02c

 

[umichsteve]

When we built our house 2.5 years ago; Natural Gas company wanted $12,000 dollars (upfront) to run gas line back to the our house (1400' from main). I went with a Geo Thermo unit and have never looked back since. Obviously, with purchasing a home you may not have that choice, but wanted to comment otherwise.

 

[dmccarty]

...it's been bitterly cold the past two months in mid-Michigan, but my monthly gas bill including a gas water heater was only $160 with tax for a 2450 square foot house, full basement with R-19 walls, R-19 wall insulation upstairs, R-30 attic insulation, double and triple pane windows, 68 degrees...and that was running two 94% percent efficient furnaces...

R30 for attic insulation is on the low side. I think we put R45ish in ours back in 2004. The HVAC guy told us to limit what we added since it might mess up his load calculations.....

http://www.crittercatchersinc.com/TAP_Insulation/TAP_Literature/R-60_DOE_Insulation.pdf

The DOE is recommending R30 as a minimum in the southern states to R49 as a minimum in the colder states. A maximum of R60 for every part of the country except SE Florida.

I am always SHOCKED at how much people pay to heat a house. I hear coworkers talk of spending $200-300 a month not including electric. Then I hear of heating bills up Nawth....

Over the weekend I was FINALLY able to move the logs from two dead trees I cut down in December. Moved them back to the firewood area and cut them into rounds ready to split. Figure there is two cords of wood which will get us through December and January next season.

Costs:
- One tank of fuel mix for chainsaw to cut down and cut up trees. $1.
- Two tanks of fuel mix for saw to cut logs into rounds. $2.
- Three gallons of diesel to move logs with tractor. $11
- Six gallons of diesel to run log splitter on tractor. $22

$36 for two cords of wood to burn during the coldest part of the season. :thumbsup:

Having a very WARM house when the power goes out.

Priceless. :thumbsup::laughing::laughing:

Wood works for us but obviously it will not for every one. If the wood cost $200 a cord one might as well use power, gas, or oil. Still shocked at people's heating bills.

Later,
Dan

 

[JDgreen227]

R30 for attic insulation is on the low side. I think we put R45ish in ours back in 2004. The HVAC guy told us to limit what we added since it might mess up his load calculations.....

http://www.crittercatchersinc.com/TAP_Insulation/TAP_Literature/R-60_DOE_Insulation.pdf

The DOE is recommending R30 as a minimum in the southern states to R49 as a minimum in the colder states. A maximum of R60 for every part of the country except SE Florida.

I am always SHOCKED at how much people pay to heat a house. I hear coworkers talk of spending $200-300 a month not including electric. Then I hear of heating bills up Nawth....

Over the weekend I was FINALLY able to move the logs from two dead trees I cut down in December. Moved them back to the firewood area and cut them into rounds ready to split. Figure there is two cords of wood which will get us through December and January next season.

Costs:
- One tank of fuel mix for chainsaw to cut down and cut up trees. $1.
- Two tanks of fuel mix for saw to cut logs into rounds. $2.
- Three gallons of diesel to move logs with tractor. $11
- Six gallons of diesel to run log splitter on tractor. $22

$36 for two cords of wood to burn during the coldest part of the season. :thumbsup:

Having a very WARM house when the power goes out.

Priceless. :thumbsup::laughing::laughing:

Wood works for us but obviously it will not for every one. If the wood cost $200 a cord one might as well use power, gas, or oil. Still shocked at people's heating bills.

Later,
Dan

ME BAD...I meant R-39 it's 9 inches of fiberglass--when we built on I wanted top use 2X6 sidewalls but wife's brother told me the extra cost of wood and insulation would never be recovered I am sorry now I listened to him !!!!

 

[JB4310]

With geo thermal, is there any future costs/maintenance?
Especially with the expensive underground infastructure?
Or is it pretty much good for average life time, the underground part that is?

JB.

 

[gerard]

From your choices natural gas is a no brainer. NG expected to stay flat for the next two years at least. Plenty of supply. Cheaper than propane because it's not trucked in but piped. Forget an air to air heat pump in MA. Too cold. I use one for the AC part but not for the heating part. Personnaly I use a coal furnace which is even cheaper than NG though a bit more work. Does give a nice ven heat though and I keep the house warmer than when using my oil back up. (Cost is about 1/3 the cost of oil for a season).

 

[gerard]

ME BAD...I meant R-39 it's 9 inches of fiberglass--when we built on I wanted top use 2X6 sidewalls but wife's brother told me the extra cost of wood and insulation would never be recovered I am sorry now I listened to him !!!!

Guess I'd not be listening to my brother in law anymore:laughing:! 2x6 has been code in upstate NY for over 20 years. Can't beleive it's not in MI - you're even colder than us!

 

[Rileyroo]

I built my house in 1983 and installed a wood/coal boiler with an electric boiler tied in to use if necessary. After burning wood for ten years I tried coal. I have found coal to be the best. I tend it twice per day and keep the whole house at 72*. I also heat my domestic hot water off the boiler. For the heating season I use 3 1/2 tons of coal or about $700 worth. Also have no problems with creosote in the chimney. If you plan on a solid fuel and have to buy the fuel, coal is by far the best choice in my opinion.

 

[jinjimbob]

electric rates would have to be cheap to beat some of these 98% efficient gas furnaces. Air temp from an HP isn't even close to gas unit when it gets cold out. Alot of my customers ask me about a HP as, the elec. co. is always running ads for them. I tell them if your use to the warm air from a gas furnace , you won't be happy with a HP

Warm air? Maybe if they sit on top of the vents, but I don't do that.

The heat pump can run at the same time as your backup oil/propane/natural-gas heat, they work together.

The thermostat should be smart enough to know when to even bother using the heat pump part of the heating system.

I got rid of propane, put in an electric only system with electric resistance backup. I save money on having no propane bill.

If you are putting in a new heating system and have natural gas available, then put in a heat pump with natural gas for backup/aux heat.

I have seen my heat pump run down to 8 deg F so far.

 

[LD1]

Warm air? Maybe if they sit on top of the vents, but I don't do that.

The heat pump can run at the same time as your backup oil/propane/natural-gas heat, they work together.

The thermostat should be smart enough to know when to even bother using the heat pump part of the heating system.

I got rid of propane, put in an electric only system with electric resistance backup. I save money on having no propane bill.

If you are putting in a new heating system and have natural gas available, then put in a heat pump with natural gas for backup/aux heat.

I have seen my heat pump run down to 8 deg F so far.

I could be wrong because I am no HVAC expert, but I have yet to see a heat pump work at the same time as aux/back up heat. They are actually programmed to NOT run at the same time. Something about the aux. heat messing with the temps and pressures of the refrigerant in the heat pump.

I currently have a heat pump with propane backup. My heatpump is set to work down to 17*F. I started another thread a few months ago, but basically I have been monitering it all winter. 17 degrees in MY break even point. below that, Propane is cheaper per BTU. And with my current electric rates of .10 per kwh and propane at ~2.00/gal, propane is cheaper per BTU that electric resistance. With each gallon of propane being ~92000btu, that would be ~27kwh of electric. @ $.10 per, that means propane has to go above $2.70 for it to be a better option. So unless your propane is really high, or your electric is really cheap, I dont see how you are saving money switching from propane to electric.

 

[kenmac]

I could be wrong because I am no HVAC expert, but I have yet to see a heat pump work at the same time as aux/back up heat. .

They don't......When we install HP'S. HP is primary heat. When it can't keep up or goes into defrost. aux heat kicks in & HP is off

 

[LD1]

They don't......When we install HP'S. HP is primary heat. When it can't keep up or goes into defrost. aux heat kicks in & HP is off

Thats what I thought. Thanks for confirming it:thumbsup:

 

[freddyr]

You can get a higher efficient furnce with nat or lp gas 95% Plus easier to maintain than oil, Just depends on whats available. The high efficient oil costs alot and not sure if with future repairs its worth the trouble! Just a note from a heating guy

 

[mrpoppy58]

You can get a higher efficient furnce with nat or lp gas 95% Plus easier to maintain than oil, Just depends on whats available. The high efficient oil costs alot and not sure if with future repairs its worth the trouble! Just a note from a heating guy

We have used Fuel Oil for Heating since 1965. We like it. We dont have access to Natural Gas and We dont want LP gas. We are very happy with Our Heating system. We also use Wood in a Woodburning Stove.

 

[whistlepig]

With geo thermal, is there any future costs/maintenance?
Especially with the expensive underground infastructure?
Or is it pretty much good for average life time, the underground part that is?

JB.

There is plastic hose underground to and from the house and a plastic hose grid (kind of like a giant radiator) buried 5' deep about 50 yards from our house. The plastic hose is rated for 100 years. Geothermal units have a compressor. The compressor reverses directions between summer/winter heating/air conditioning. The compressors are rated for thirty years. There is no maintenance except changing the furnace filters.

 

[kenmac]

You can get a higher efficient furnce with nat or lp gas 95%

You can them get up to 98%

 

[jinjimbob]

Propane here is around $2.60 + 8.6% sales tax plus $100 year rental fee plus $5 delivery fee + other made up surcharges.

I have a new high efficiency dual stage Bryant heat pump with an electric resistance backup heat which is hardly used. I have seen both on though when it's cold, maybe it's when in the defrost mode.

I programmed the thermostat to not use the aux heat until it gets below 30 def F, and then it does what it thinks is best. I haven't seen it get cold enough not to use the heat pump yet.

I got this along with the ge heat pump water heater. I replaced a 15 year old water heater and furnace.

Combined I save about $1k per year. And no hideous ugly tank outside and much safer. Plus one less stranger coming up my driveway.

Cost a lot though , $14k.

 

[LD1]

Propane here is around $2.60 + 8.6% sales tax plus $100 year rental fee plus $5 delivery fee + other made up surcharges.

I have a new high efficiency dual stage Bryant heat pump with an electric resistance backup heat which is hardly used. I have seen both on though when it's cold, maybe it's when in the defrost mode.

I programmed the thermostat to not use the aux heat until it gets below 30 def F, and then it does what it thinks is best. I haven't seen it get cold enough not to use the heat pump yet.

I got this along with the ge heat pump water heater. I replaced a 15 year old water heater and furnace.

Combined I save about $1k per year. And no hideous ugly tank outside and much safer. Plus one less stranger coming up my driveway.

Cost a lot though , $14k.

It would be good to know where "here" is when you are quoting propane prices. But even at the price you mention and all the surcharges, etc, what you are saving in the propane vs resistance battle is pennies.

If you say that the resistance heat almost NEVER comes on, it would be the same with the propane. Like my current set-up. I have a 500gal tank and this is my 5th winter and I am still setting @ 20%. That means I have only used 300 gallons in 5 years.

And again, I dont know where "here" is, but where I live, price is quoted AS DELIVERED as long as you reach the minimum of $150. So NO delivery fees, and I also dont have a yearly fee either.

As to it being safer, thats debatable. Their are more house fires caused by eletricity than propane. I consider propane to be very safe.

But I cant argue with you about the ugly tank and having to have it filled. That IS a PITA.

 

[showcattle]

I wish we had Natural gas here or had the price you guys have for propane here. Our propane is 3.99 / gal here, plus tax, plus admin. fees, etc.