Home Generators

[whistlepig]

We've had a little Coleman 4500 8HP B&S engine since 1992 or 1993. I only run it about twice a year. I keep stabil in the gas to keep it from spoiling. Other than the occasional power outage that lasts 1-2 hours we only used it during one disaster where it ran for 3 days off and on. The thing works well for the price. About $400.00.

I am guilty of back feeding. I shut off the main disconnect under the meter and then the main breaker in the panel. I turn off all the breakers in the main panel, then head out to the unattached garage, which has a 50AMP 220V sub panel. I have a 30 AMP outlet in the garage that I back feed with a male-male cord. Once everything is plugged in and the generator grounded, I start it, let it warm up a few minutes, then return to the house and turn on the needed breakers. I watch the neighbor's lights to see if the power returns.

The reason I went this way is because the cost of an interlock or transfer switch and an outside outlet on the side of the house is just too expensive for a once a year situation. The only dangers I see is me forgetting to pull TWO breakers, not plugging in the male cord before starting the generator, or forgetting to turn off the generator before turning the two breakers back on again or removing the male cable. None of that is likely as I am the only one that performs the procedure and I have it rehearsed and practiced.

For everyone else I would recommend a professionally installed transfer switch. If we ever build a new home, I will get a proper installation.

I have a disconnect on my 220V well pump with a pigtail. When the power goes out I pull the disconnect and plug the pigtail directly to the well pump from the generator. This isolates the house wiring. No back feed. My pellet stove is plugged directly by a cord to the generator. No back feed. My refridgerators and freezer are plugged in to my generator by an extension cords. No back feed. I run an extension cord from the generator to power the lights and TV. No back feed. It's a hassle running these extension cords and hooking these things up. Takes a couple of hours on a cold winter night. But we don't have that many power outages here. And our house won't burn down and the linesmen are safe. Or you can buy a power management system for an additional $1,400.00. With $2,500 dollars invested in a Honda generator and considering $1,400 for a power management system that's $3,900. If it's not affordable then it won't be done at all. Not an option here in the country.

 

[ultrarunner]

That's precisely the fault that concerns me. According to the scientists, we are about 100 years overdue for "the big one". Apparently I am leaning towards a diesel unit. Otherwise, I would have already have purchased a NG unit through a BIL of mine who runs a HVAC company and offered to sell me one at cost. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I really do have a major concern about not being to use such a generator (NG) when I'd really need it for an extended period of time. As I've mentioned in another thread, for what I want, my electrician 'sized' me to need between a 40k minimum and likely a 50k unit. Those sizes seem to be relatively common in diesel.

Quite a few of the local Hospitals here in Earthquake country had Natural Gas Generators... never a problem and no fuel storage issues...

After the Loma Prieta Earthquake we had to upgrade to either Propane or Diesel... to comply with the new on site fuel requirement.

Just about all of us went Diesel because in the event of a prolonged outage, Diesel would have a higher probability of being available... even the county has disaster protocol to deliver Diesel from the county fuel depot to area Hospitals if needed...

We use Onan Gensets Rated at 150kw standby and 125kw prime powered by Cummins Turbo Diesels...

For my home, I would probably go Propane since I have it on site and because it will not get stale... also Diesel Storage here is another problem unless you have an ag exemption... and then all Permanent Diesel Gensets have to be registered and the annual operating permit is around $600 per year and total non-emergency run time must not exceed 30 hours per year.

Maybe Propane with a Honda 5000 gas for back-up or a trailer mounted diesel unit with it's own self-contained fuel tank???

 

[MossRoad]

I have a disconnect on my 220V well pump with a pigtail. When the power goes out I pull the disconnect and plug the pigtail directly to the well pump from the generator. This isolates the house wiring. No back feed. My pellet stove is plugged directly by a cord to the generator. No back feed. My refridgerators and freezer are plugged in to my generator by an extension cords. No back feed. I run an extension cord from the generator to power the lights and TV. No back feed. It's a hassle running these extension cords and hooking these things up. Takes a couple of hours on a cold winter night. But we don't have that many power outages here. And our house won't burn down and the linesmen are safe. Or you can buy a power management system for an additional $1,400.00. With $2,500 dollars invested in a Honda generator and considering $1,400 for a power management system that's $3,900. If it's not affordable then it won't be done at all. Not an option here in the country.

We thought about putting twist locks on everything and using cords. A good safe solution, but a pain in the neck. By the time you add up the twist locks and the cords for everything, then having to leave a door or window cracked open to run the cord through, plus the changing of the cords each time you want to run a large load, the hassle and cost factors rise.

As far as burning down the house, well, that seems to be highly unlikely to happen. The generator is in an open shed 30' from the house and plugged in with a properly rated cord. The circuits are all sized properly. There is no more a chance of me burning down the house than there is using utility company power. I don't have the need to spend $4000 on a power backup system when $400 will do the job for us.

 

[MossRoad]

... As I've mentioned in another thread, for what I want, my electrician 'sized' me to need between a 40k minimum and likely a 50k unit. Those sizes seem to be relatively common in diesel.

YIKES! I just re-read those power requirements. You got a big teepee?

Just kidding. I know some folks that want to live during a power outage the same way they do during normal electrical availability. If you have the funds, go for it.

 

[Highbeam]

I also wonder about the whole floating neutral thing. I have a 4-wire connection to my genset through the inspected and approved whole house transfer panel. So the ground and neutral all go through the panel to the ground rods. The genset itself just sets out there with the twistlok hooked to it. No seperate ground rod for a chassis ground. Is that needed? It wasn't part of my inspection. Why would it be needed?

A whole house transfer panel is accomplished by a 150$ interlock kit on the panel, a 7 dollar 30 amp breaker, some wire, and a 30 amp male twistlok plug on the wall. All legal and approved by your local AHJ. Don't be fooled into thinking you need a 1400$ power management system.

 

[hr3]

It dosn't have to cost thousands to do it right.. http://www.squared.com/us/products/safety_switches.nsf/unid/58730BADE9B1D53085256CE500728C1B/$file/doublethrowsafetyswitchFrameset.htm

A simple manual switch is all you need.. I can't see calling my wife at home telling her to pull out the old jenny,,get her going then plug in this piggy tail thing,,but Oooo don't forget to turn off the top switch,,,then throw on the little one on the left,,,,,, Nahhh I love her too much for that,,don't want her fryed,,,.. Hmmm maybe one of the kids can do it...

 

[coobie]

It is funny.

You also have the guys that start screaming about backfeeding an entire grid. I guess in Michigan our generators are the only ones with 30 amp breakers. Every time I try to use too much in my own house it trips. I can only imagine how well it'd supply voltage to a whole neighborhood.

Being a electric lineman here in Michigan for 30 plus years I CAN TELL YOU it can BE DONE,as in I have seen it.Not to long ago a local farmer was back feeding about 2 miles of line from a 6500 watt gen.that he had hooked up incorrect.coobie

 

[BungeeII]

Being a electric lineman here in Michigan for 30 plus years I CAN TELL YOU it can BE DONE,as in I have seen it.Not to long ago a local farmer was back feeding about 2 miles of line from a 6500 watt gen.that he had hooked up incorrect.coobie

Holy crap, Coobie. The chances of going 200 yards around here without powering another house is slim, let alone 2 miles. You must be in Amish country.

 

[MossRoad]

Being a electric lineman here in Michigan for 30 plus years I CAN TELL YOU it can BE DONE,as in I have seen it.Not to long ago a local farmer was back feeding about 2 miles of line from a 6500 watt gen.that he had hooked up incorrect.coobie

Yeah, I recall a news story around here where some guy was back feeding his house with a generator and several of the neighbors houses, too, through the power lines. They all shared a common transformer. I think they did an interview with the power company that was restoring power after the storm. The guy was real proud of the fact the he was powering the neighbors' houses, too. The lineman mentioned he could kill someone that way and told the guy he would have to turn off the generator before anyone in the neighborhood would get power restored.

As for generator related deaths and injuries, I would be more worried about carbon monoxide poisoning. It seems several people, even entire families, die around here each year by running generators in their garages. The exhaust kills them in their sleep. They don't want the generator stolen, so they close the garage door. Some even leave it open a crack, but not enough to let the fumes out. Really sad when an entire family dies that way.

 

[ByronBob]

I built my house so I cheated a bit. But they breaker boxes that are wired correctly for the alternate power inside the box. This was only a $500 upgrade and it was worth it.

 

[dmccarty]

.... The genset itself just sets out there with the twistlok hooked to it. No seperate ground rod for a chassis ground. Is that needed? It wasn't part of my inspection. Why would it be needed?

I will be danged if I know WHY its needed by my DR Mower generator attachment said it should have a ground. So I bought two 8 feet long very expensive copper ground rods. One was pounded in near my back panel where the generator would operate and they other back by the barn. Pounding two 8 feet ground rods into my rocky ground was not fun.

Our power went off last night at 1:13 am. I heard boom from a transformer and then UPSes started beeping. After the system and UPSes were delt with I tried to go back to sleep. But then then power trucks woke me up. They were a mile or so away but I could hear them since our windows were open. Beep Beep Beep they went.

VERY GLAD TO HEAR THEM!

I figured a tree had fallen for some reason but this morning I saw nothing. I have no idea why the power went. The said it would be back on in two hours and it was.

Course when the power came back on things started beeping which woke me up again. But that is a good thing to wake up for!

Later,
Dan

 

[MossRoad]

I will be danged if I know WHY its needed by my DR Mower generator attachment said it should have a ground. ...

I was wondering that, too. Looking at my generator, it is isolated from the frame of the unit with rubber and springs, so it is not really touching the earth even if the frame is in dirt. The manual says to ground it, so I ground it when at home. I grounded it at my in-laws' house when we used it there, too.

You gotta wonder how many folks actually ground their portable generators? You see folks using them all over the place during storms and contractors never seem to ground them, either.

I just suppose it is a good practice to ground it properly in case something would go wrong so there is a good path to ground through the rod instead of someone's body.

 

[QueBota]

I ground my generator also, drove the standard copper rod into the ground next to the generator and connected from the ground screw on the generator to the grounding rod with the standard copper grounding wire and clamp. I even ocassionally clean the clamp/grounding rod connection. Don't know how it could happen but I don't want to be the path of least resistance, my generator puts out 50 amps at 240v.

Funny thing though, my service panel doesn't appear to have a similar ground. There is no copper rod near my service entrance connected with a grounding wire. Both my phone and cable companies use my cold water pipe as a ground which is interesting because my water pipe transitions to black ABS on the well side of the pressure tank.

Dave

 

[Highbeam]

I have two 8' ground rods near and connected to the panel and then my generator is attached to the house panel with a 4 wire connection including neutral and ground that both connect with the panel grounds of course. So my genset is attached to the panel and it's ground but inside the genset if neither the white or ground wire are ever attached to the chassis of the genset (maybe this is described as a "floating neutral") then the genset isn't really grounded.

Think of all the RVs out there equipped with gensets. Those things aren't grounded at all and have 110 volt AC plugs on the outside with GFCI outlets!

So many confusing issues. I got my generator installation inspected, did you?

 

[QueBota]

I don't have an "official" county granted inspection stamp on my service panel, but one of my shooting buddies is an electrician (industrial) and he looked over my setup and said it was more than adequate and safe. I can sleep soundly (between refueling and checking the oil) when running on generator power.

Where I live in the Peoples Rebublik of Maryland you want the government involved in your life as little as possible and they will try to worm their way in given the slightest opportunity.

A friend of mine wanted to remove an old fuel tank from the ground behind his house (they brought natural gas to his area). I told him we could dig it out and get rid of it no problem. He wanted to make sure he followed procedure. The procedure ended up costing him nearly $10K.

Dave

 

[Dargo]

Can anyone give me a layman's explanation of the 'floating ground' that most generators have? I can't really grasp exactly what it is and how to be sure to not fry things in my home due to it. About the only thing I do know is that without proper setup it will destroy about everything in your home that is plugged in and has any transformer in it. My BIL pulled his main and backfed his home through a 30 amp welding outlet. All sorts of things started smoking in his home and he destroyed the circuit board in 4 TV sets, blew the transformers in both of his home furnaces and smoked about everything else that was plugged in. He turned it into his homeowner's policy and got some money but I think he said he ended up being out about $4000 by the time it was all said and done. I know he still has several ceiling fans that don't work and he hasn't replaced yet.

All I know is that I don't want to do whatever he did. So, based on 'a little knowledge being dangerous', I opted to buy a couple hundred bucks worth of extension cords and just use the panels on my little gas powered generators when my power was out last winter. Heck, I didn't even have hot water until I plugged my tankless water heaters into an extension cord with power. I'd forgotten about them needing electricity. My dad found out that his new water, with a tank, also had to have power because it is one of those new ones that doesn't have a pilot flame and uses an ignighter of some sort to fire up.

 

[MossRoad]

Can anyone give me a layman's explanation of the 'floating ground' that most generators have? I can't really grasp exactly what it is and how to be sure to not fry things in my home due to it. About the only thing I do know is that without proper setup it will destroy about everything in your home that is plugged in and has any transformer in it. My BIL pulled his main and backfed his home through a 30 amp welding outlet. All sorts of things started smoking in his home and he destroyed the circuit board in 4 TV sets, blew the transformers in both of his home furnaces and smoked about everything else that was plugged in. He turned it into his homeowner's policy and got some money but I think he said he ended up being out about $4000 by the time it was all said and done. I know he still has several ceiling fans that don't work and he hasn't replaced yet.

All I know is that I don't want to do whatever he did. So, based on 'a little knowledge being dangerous', I opted to buy a couple hundred bucks worth of extension cords and just use the panels on my little gas powered generators when my power was out last winter. Heck, I didn't even have hot water until I plugged my tankless water heaters into an extension cord with power. I'd forgotten about them needing electricity. My dad found out that his new water, with a tank, also had to have power because it is one of those new ones that doesn't have a pilot flame and uses an ignighter of some sort to fire up.

Hmmmm.... the only time I've seen stuff smoke is when it is over voltaged. Like when two legs of 110 get stuck onto each other and feed 220 to 110 machines. That happened twice to some friends of ours... their drunken neighbor twice in a year backed into a power pole guy wire and somehow pushed two legs of 110 together on the wires that feed both houses. The lights in the house got REAL BRIGHT and about everything in the house got fried!!! Twice in one year!!! They got new appliances and electronics both times.

My 1st guess is your BIL somehow fed both 110v legs of the generator onto one leg of the 220v welder outlet. That would send 220V down one side of the breaker panel and fry everything connected on that side of the panel. But, that is just a guess.

My other guess is he backfed the welder outlet correctly, but something else was also connected to a 220V circuit somewhere in the house that somehow connected both sides together. What would do that, though?

 

[Dargo]

Hmmmm.... the only time I've seen stuff smoke is when it is over voltaged. Like when two legs of 110 get stuck onto each other and feed 220 to 110 machines. That happened twice to some friends of ours... their drunken neighbor twice in a year backed into a power pole guy wire and somehow pushed two legs of 110 together on the wires that feed both houses. The lights in the house got REAL BRIGHT and about everything in the house got fried!!! Twice in one year!!! They got new appliances and electronics both times.

My 1st guess is your BIL somehow fed both 110v legs of the generator onto one leg of the 220v welder outlet. That would send 220V down one side of the breaker panel and fry everything connected on that side of the panel. But, that is just a guess.

My other guess is he backfed the welder outlet correctly, but something else was also connected to a 220V circuit somewhere in the house that somehow connected both sides together. What would do that, though?

I certainly can't say for sure what he did. I just saw things start smoking and immediately smelled that burning electronics smell. While he was literally wondering out loud what was wrong I ran out his front door and flipped his generator off. I wasn't there when he wired it up and I wasn't there after the magic smoke leaked out of his stuff. My contribution was bringing him a five gallon can of gas for his generator. He lives on a road that dead ends down a long hill and they didn't have anything that could get out to get gas so I was only the gas delivery guy. He later said something about not accounting for the floating ground. An electrician I am not. I've done the very basic stuff like wiring my barns but that was pretty well limited to installing the breaker box, running some outlets, dropping a 220v down from the box for my welder and wiring in a couple of light switches. I'm still in basic wiring 101 as far as my skill and knowledge level.

 

[ultrarunner]

Funny thing though, my service panel doesn't appear to have a similar ground. There is no copper rod near my service entrance connected with a grounding wire. Both my phone and cable companies use my cold water pipe as a ground which is interesting because my water pipe transitions to black ABS on the well side of the pressure tank.

Dave

Not every home has a ground or even a service or circuit panel...

I worked on a few older homes in my city from the 1920's and they have zero in the way of grounding...

Back then the service drop was knob and tube that went to a double knife switch that disconnected both the hot and neutral... the knife switch is exposed in a wooden box and not protected by a panel box and is between the service drop and meter.

A lot of these 30 amp Edison Fuse Services still exist...

 

[Bedlam]

Here is a couple links related to the 'floating ground' part of the post.
Floating ground - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Floating ground & common ground? - Yahoo! Answers