Home Generators

[dmccarty]

Our house is wired the same as RonMar and we have the plug similar/same as what Charlz posted. I am pretty sure the cable to connect the genset has two female ends. Can't remember for sure. I know one end is female to match the house connection.

We have a simple lock out device as well. We can either use the grid or the generator. One or the other.

We paid the electrician $200-300 to do the installation which included the equipment he needed in the panels. I bought the genset cable though he did tell me he could make one up for me if I bought the plugs. The plugs were not cheap so I just bought the ready made cable.

Just have to mange the power load via our existing circuit breakers.

Later,
Dan

 

[BungeeII]

This plate, once slid, then physically locks the main breaker in the off position untill the generator breaker is turned back off.

What's funny is I've seen the "you're going to kill a linemen" zealots saying that you cannot connect a generator in this fashion because "the main breaker doesn't always disconnect both legs".

A lineman should be properly protected from voltage. If he's relying on the good sense of everyone in the neighborhood he's working in, he's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Scooby074]

What's funny is I've seen the "you're going to kill a linemen" zealots saying that you cannot connect a generator in this fashion because "the main breaker doesn't always disconnect both legs".

A lineman should be properly protected from voltage. If he's relying on the good sense of everyone in the neighborhood he's working in, he's an accident waiting to happen.

Why put added risk on top of an already dangerous job (linesman)? Yes the linesmen should be working as though the wires live, however a properly installed xfer reduces the risk even more.

The code is there for a reason. I think that while these interlock kits are a good step, (ie: there better than nothing when installed and used properly), there still not as good as a true transfer switch.

These kits likely came onto the market due to the fact that alot of people balk at the cost of a transfer switch and these kits offer some small measure of protection (better than nothing). My local hydro knows nothing about them , and theyre not CSA approved. I emailed to company to confirm their status, but the company never bothered to email back.

The Generlink, however is approved by NSP, and CSA. Its also available locally. While not as cheap as the interlock kits, i think the end result would be safer as it isolates the mains at the meter base instead of relying on the main breaker. And its still cheaper than a traditional transfer switch, once install labour is figured in.

Electrical code has been set up to protect "the average idiot" Sorry if thats not PC, but never underestimate a persons ability to kill themselves. Thats why a live male plug is a ridiculous idea. Yes i know you can plug it in in a sequence where the blades are never live, but that implies that you have knowledge, which puts you one step above the average idiot.

Remember, common sense isnt all that common. Alot of things in the code came out of loss of life or property.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

What's funny is I've seen the "you're going to kill a linemen" zealots saying that you cannot connect a generator in this fashion because "the main breaker doesn't always disconnect both legs".

A lineman should be properly protected from voltage. If he's relying on the good sense of everyone in the neighborhood he's working in, he's an accident waiting to happen.

As a general rule lineman do protect themselves from alternate sources of voltage, but in storm situations ie hurricanes etc we work long hours for weeks on end, on average about 30hrs then 6hrs rest and then usually 18 hr days until all the lights are back on and we like other people have people in our trade that get complacent, so we do appreciate the people that hook their generators up the right way so as not to backfeed the transformer stepping up the voltage, just last week in a small town about 100 miles South of here called Bartow Florida an apprentice lineman was burnt from a generator backfeeding a downed powerline. We have a way of dealing with those situations if we are aware of them, usually we ground down the line at the transformer pole were the generator is backfeeding and that usually bogs it down to nothing and usually damages the generator. As far as being an accident waiting to happen you could be to in the morning on the way to work, pull up to a stop sign is the other guy gonna stop? you hope he will, the law says he shall stop, bad accidents happen to good people, nobody's immune.

 

[RonMar]

What's funny is I've seen the "you're going to kill a linemen" zealots saying that you cannot connect a generator in this fashion because "the main breaker doesn't always disconnect both legs"..

Well the NEC and the preconfigured, generator ready backfeed panels I have seen on the shelf at most box stores would tend to disagree with those Zealots I have been in a LOT of power panels over the years, and replaced a lot of toasted breakers(big and small) and I have never seen a breaker NOT open the legs running thru it when the breaker switch/lever or opening mechanism was moved to the open position. A lot of effort and engineering has gone into making sure that this happens. The contact linkage is hard connected to the lever. If the contacts were fused together, the lever would not/should not move. I have seen fused/welded breaker contacts, but they could not be turned off, because the lever would not move to separate them... In the interlock scheme, No lever movement on the main breaker = no interlock plate movement and no backfeed breaker. I have worked on and around interlocked circuit controlls for many years and they are simple and effective.

One that did not open the legs passing thru it, or a panel wired so that not all "hot" legs were opened/pass thru the main breaker would be just as much a hazard for anyone working in the panel...

Interesting info for anyone interested in circuit breakers.
HowStuffWorks "Basic Circuit Breaker Design"

 

[ragkar]

One precaution that nobody mentions is having a typed procedure for changing over to the generator. There's usually about five to ten steps involved and since you may only use the generator once a year, you don't want to puzzle over the procedure.

Also have a spare flashlight prepositioned at the circuit box.

 

[BungeeII]

Well the NEC and the preconfigured, generator ready backfeed panels I have seen on the shelf at most box stores would tend to disagree with those Zealots I have been in a LOT of power panels over the years, and replaced a lot of toasted breakers(big and small) and I have never seen a breaker NOT open the legs running thru it when the breaker switch/lever or opening mechanism was moved to the open position. A lot of effort and engineering has gone into making sure that this happens. The contact linkage is hard connected to the lever. If the contacts were fused together, the lever would not/should not move. I have seen fused/welded breaker contacts, but they could not be turned off, because the lever would not move to separate them... In the interlock scheme, No lever movement on the main breaker = no interlock plate movement and no backfeed breaker. I have worked on and around interlocked circuit controlls for many years and they are simple and effective.

One that did not open the legs passing thru it, or a panel wired so that not all "hot" legs were opened/pass thru the main breaker would be just as much a hazard for anyone working in the panel...

Interesting info for anyone interested in circuit breakers.
HowStuffWorks "Basic Circuit Breaker Design"

Oh, I'm sure the breakers work by design... I was commenting more on the frenzy that always happens in these threads all over the internet.

No offense to the linemen that visit here intended either, and thanks to LNF for posting. First, thanks for posting how it's a breakdown in other processes that lead to injury. Second, I 100% support your method for eliminating the problem.

I personally am aware of more carbon monoxide fatalities than lineman injuries due to unsafe generator use and am quick to caution folks on running their generators in the garage.

I've seen far too many people take precautions against injuring themselves, their generators, or anyone on the grid to "assume they don't have the common sense" to take care of their home in a power failure. Are there exceptions? Of course. And that's what linemen should be protecting themselves against.

 

[dmccarty]

Interlock kit installation costs $200-300 depending on location. Said kit makes it danged near impossible for the homeowner or lineman to get shocked.

Back feeding is "cheaper" than an interlock setup but compared to a interlock setup it is much more likely to cause a shock.

If the homeowner or lineman is injured or killed because of the back feed how much will that "cost" the homeowner?

Was the savings of a few hundred dollars worth the risk of doing it right the first time?

Later,
Dan

 

[DennisArrow]

Let me see if I have this right. First of all, I really appreciate any help you guys can give me. I am old and dyslexic so bear with me. Ok.........am getting ready to wire my 6.5 KW generator that is for well back up, to keep the freezer going, a few lights, and then if there is enough left, maybe the TV etc..................NO COOKING, AC, HEAT, HOT WATER.......

OK........

Here is the situation..........

I have a main breaker box upstairs in the house in a hall closet. It is a 200 amp box with a service disconnect at the top. FROM there, on a 220v 60amp breaker, I feed down in my lower level a 220v 100 amp breaker box that feeds my well, a barn, my shop, and a vehicle storage barn.

In 12 years I have NEVER blown a breaker for overload so feel good about that.

Depending upon the situation of the power loss, and length we can easily move to the Air Stream trailer for LONG TERM living with AC, heat, cooking, etc. OR, we heat the house with wood anyway, despite 2 heat pumps, so we can easily "live" in the house for long term........The Trailer has a Honda 3000 for very adequate power supply........

OK..........THE PLAN: WHERE I NEED YOUR HELP AND ADVICE

I plan to run a 10 guage 3 wire with ground from the generator to a 40 Amp 220 V load center with a breaker...THIS Load center will be mounted NEXT to the 100 amp box that feeds the well, etc....I will run the generator to the input lugs and "common" bar, of this box. FROM the breaker and common bar, I will go over to 100 amp box.

MAJOR QUESTION..........
1. With the generator Load center when I turn OFF the breaker will the "input" lugs of the load center be hot when the generator is NOT running? My common sense says no and only depending upon how I wire it into the 100 Amp box.

2.When wiring INTO the 100A box should I put this INTO a 30A 220V breaker and use it as an in and out switch or just go into the lugs of the 100A box itself, using the various breakers for control of the circuits.

My procedure for power loss will be:

1. Turn OFF the service panel 200 amp master breaker

2. Turn OFF the breaker from the 200 amp service panel that feeds the 100 amp box that goes to the well, etc.......WHEN I WANT LIGHTS IN THE HOUSE ITSELF OR THE REFRIG THAT FEEDS OUT OF THIS BREAKER BOX I WILL TURN THIS ON............LEAVING THE MASTER BREAKER SWITCH OFF AND MOST OF THE OTHER CIRCUITS IN THIS BOX OFF

3. Turn off the 100 amp master breaker.............IF I USE A BREAKER FROM THE GENERATOR LOAD CENTER I WILL TURN IT OFF AS WELL

4. Turn OFF the Generator load center breakers

5. Fire up the generator

6. Turn ON the generator load center breaker

7. Turn on the 100 amp master breaker OR turn on the breaker in the 100A from the generator load center.

8. In the 100A box Turn on whatever breakers that I want to use, well, barn lights, etc

9. Turn on the breaker in the 200A box that feeds the 100A box.

10. Turn ON the 200 amp service breakers to distribute power to the house for frig, lights, tv, etc

NEVER TURN ON THE MASTER BREAKER TO THE 200 amp MAIN BOX


Ok........yes.....I know that this is complicated but for me it would seem to work......yes, this will be posted by the generator load center, my wife and others will be trained on it's use..........

Question...........in the 100amp box.......from/to the generator load center, do I need to use a breaker to isolate the load center or just go directly into the lugs of the 100 amp box?

Yes, this may seem complicated; but PLEASE understand that I have tried to use the language that I understand and use..........

Thanks for your help, patience, and guidance.............Dennis

 

[dave1949]

DennisArrow,

I agree, it's complicated - too complicated.

One of the things I think is missing in your design is a fool-proof way of not feeding power back into the commercial grid. Flipping a combination of breakers is not fool proof.

A side note: A good 6500 watt generator will do a lot more than run your well pump, freezer, frig and a few lights. You can watch TV, use a microwave oven and probably still have some capacity left over.

The generator breaker might trip if the frig, freezer and well pump all decide to run while you are microwaving.

Dave.