Short Game
Veteran Member
I'd rather it be one valve than one ring.
High RPM Smoke
- Thread starter Dallas_Lilly
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I'd rather it be one valve than one ring.
art
Super Member
Sorry but I don't see a intake valve leaking causing the extra oil in the base! We do see injection pump shaft seals leaking that could give you a quart in thirty minutes!
We do see cylinders that glaze over do to unburnt fuel running by the rings that will add to the base, but not that much!
The lower compression could be from glazed walls, that much oil being added to the base, I'd be looking at the pump shaft seal! To have number three hole only regardless of the injector installed, I'm back to the pump again!
To have the intake valve issue as a possible, warm the engine to operating temps and grab a spray bottle from your wife and spray water into the air intake hose at a rate not enough to stall the engine at 1/3rd but to allow it to steam off any potential carbon. To have had a issue like this long enough could be that carbon is holding open the valve unless you checked it with a dial indicator that it is traveling the proper distance.
We do see cylinders that glaze over do to unburnt fuel running by the rings that will add to the base, but not that much!
The lower compression could be from glazed walls, that much oil being added to the base, I'd be looking at the pump shaft seal! To have number three hole only regardless of the injector installed, I'm back to the pump again!
To have the intake valve issue as a possible, warm the engine to operating temps and grab a spray bottle from your wife and spray water into the air intake hose at a rate not enough to stall the engine at 1/3rd but to allow it to steam off any potential carbon. To have had a issue like this long enough could be that carbon is holding open the valve unless you checked it with a dial indicator that it is traveling the proper distance.
OP
Dallas_Lilly
Gold Member
Correct me if I am wrong but here is my theroy, I am by far not an expert and welcome any advice.
I have cold cylinder, I measured it with an infrared heat gun. #3 cylinder is 40 to 60 degrees colder than the other cylinders. My theroy is that because of a burnt valve or carboned for that matter the cylinder is not able to make compression. Because it cannot make compression it cannot burn fuel, that fuel has to go somewhere. Some is going past the rings and into the crankcase and some is going out the exhaust. I could be wrong about how long it took the engine oil rise a quart however I know that it raised a quart and it wasnt all that long of running.
The injection pump on this tractor does not have a shaft seal. It is mounted to the side of the engine and the bottom of it has rollers and tappets. Those rollers and tappets are controled by a camshaft that is driven by crankshaft.
I thought about carbon and again please help me if I am way off base but when I had air in the cylinders last night I tapped the top of the valves with a rubber mallet, in gasoline eninges I have been able to clear the carbon that way before, could be different for diesels.
I have cold cylinder, I measured it with an infrared heat gun. #3 cylinder is 40 to 60 degrees colder than the other cylinders. My theroy is that because of a burnt valve or carboned for that matter the cylinder is not able to make compression. Because it cannot make compression it cannot burn fuel, that fuel has to go somewhere. Some is going past the rings and into the crankcase and some is going out the exhaust. I could be wrong about how long it took the engine oil rise a quart however I know that it raised a quart and it wasnt all that long of running.
The injection pump on this tractor does not have a shaft seal. It is mounted to the side of the engine and the bottom of it has rollers and tappets. Those rollers and tappets are controled by a camshaft that is driven by crankshaft.
I thought about carbon and again please help me if I am way off base but when I had air in the cylinders last night I tapped the top of the valves with a rubber mallet, in gasoline eninges I have been able to clear the carbon that way before, could be different for diesels.
Short Game
Veteran Member
The cam and rollers are oiled and a straight shot into the crankcase. When he says, "shaft," I assume he means the plunger of #3 pump. That is what I first thought of when you stated how much fuel was getting into the pan. That pump looks a lot like the one I took apart on my K3M. My pump is a Denso.
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CharlieS
Gold Member
After reading all the posts here, got me to thinking. With compression being a bit lower in that cyl and the fact you are getting fuel in the oil, i'd guess its cylinder glazing or worn rings. Since you mention cracking the line clears up the smoke issue, it makes sense that the smoking would stop since you are venting fuel to the outside of the engine vs pumping it into the cylinder. With the high compression of a diesel it could easily cause that amount of blowby forcing the fuel into the pan. Couple that with the possibility of pump output being a bit high on that cyl and a quart or so into the pan would be feasible.
At a high idle, no load if the engine burns say a gallon an hour or even 2/3 to 3/4 gph, thats not an impossible amount to blow by in the timeframe you are thinking.
At a high idle, no load if the engine burns say a gallon an hour or even 2/3 to 3/4 gph, thats not an impossible amount to blow by in the timeframe you are thinking.
Ford tractor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2010
- Messages
- 975
He has multiple issues.
1) fuel leak. Has to be from the pump. Probably a seal on the drive, but could even be a crack in the pump. If 30 min of idle time = 1qt of fuel, the injector doesn't use that much -- even at full PTO speed under load! A 30hp diesel will use about 1 gal per hour at full operating rpm and load. So each injector is using 1/3 gal per hour. If all the fuel was being dumped into the engine -- there would be MASSIVE amounts of white smoke and a nasty miss that everyone and anyone could identify.
2) lower compression. Could be as simple as a gummed up ring or a valve too tight. Doesn't take much to unseat a valve and lose compression at 450 psi. Or it could be major as a broke ring -- but you can usually heat them "flutter". At least an experienced mechanic can. Could also be from poor maintenance and the cylinder could be scored from dirty air (not a slam - but it's possible). If ether was ever used (even once) the ring lands could be collapsed. (that stuff is ONLY for emergencies when you can't get any electricity to heat the engine.)
1) fuel leak. Has to be from the pump. Probably a seal on the drive, but could even be a crack in the pump. If 30 min of idle time = 1qt of fuel, the injector doesn't use that much -- even at full PTO speed under load! A 30hp diesel will use about 1 gal per hour at full operating rpm and load. So each injector is using 1/3 gal per hour. If all the fuel was being dumped into the engine -- there would be MASSIVE amounts of white smoke and a nasty miss that everyone and anyone could identify.
2) lower compression. Could be as simple as a gummed up ring or a valve too tight. Doesn't take much to unseat a valve and lose compression at 450 psi. Or it could be major as a broke ring -- but you can usually heat them "flutter". At least an experienced mechanic can. Could also be from poor maintenance and the cylinder could be scored from dirty air (not a slam - but it's possible). If ether was ever used (even once) the ring lands could be collapsed. (that stuff is ONLY for emergencies when you can't get any electricity to heat the engine.)
OP
Dallas_Lilly
Gold Member
There is massive amounts of smoke however it is not white, more of a light blue and smells like diesel and will burn your eyes an nose. Everybody keeps pointing back to the pump and I still could very well have a problem there.
The poor maintenance issue has crossed my mind but not because of not changing oil or the like or something that I neglected. I do alot of brush hogging with this tractor and the radiator plugs frequently, in the fall it is a daily occurence on the weekends. When it plugs the ONLY way to clean it well is to remove the battery and the air filter housing. Now of course I plug the tube with a shop rag when I remove the housing but I am wondering if a little bit of dirt did not get into the intake. I know it doesnt take much. However I am still stuck and still wondering if I have bad compression rings why I am not getting blowby? and why only a problem with smoking at higher RPMS?
I injected smoke from an evap smoke machine into the glowplug hole last night and I definatly had an intake valve not sealing properly, I removed the lower oil filler cap and the dipstick and never did see smoke come out of the crankcase, just out of the intake. I have the head over at a machine shop right now they are going to test it, I am guessing a valve job is in order.
The thing I still cannot get past is what would cause the engine to smoke and miss at high RPM above 2K and run perfect as near as I can tell below 2K RPM?
The poor maintenance issue has crossed my mind but not because of not changing oil or the like or something that I neglected. I do alot of brush hogging with this tractor and the radiator plugs frequently, in the fall it is a daily occurence on the weekends. When it plugs the ONLY way to clean it well is to remove the battery and the air filter housing. Now of course I plug the tube with a shop rag when I remove the housing but I am wondering if a little bit of dirt did not get into the intake. I know it doesnt take much. However I am still stuck and still wondering if I have bad compression rings why I am not getting blowby? and why only a problem with smoking at higher RPMS?
I injected smoke from an evap smoke machine into the glowplug hole last night and I definatly had an intake valve not sealing properly, I removed the lower oil filler cap and the dipstick and never did see smoke come out of the crankcase, just out of the intake. I have the head over at a machine shop right now they are going to test it, I am guessing a valve job is in order.
The thing I still cannot get past is what would cause the engine to smoke and miss at high RPM above 2K and run perfect as near as I can tell below 2K RPM?
Short Game
Veteran Member
I'm thinking that valve starts to float at 2K and that has it starting to degrade, hence, the loss of some compression. Just theory. Doesn't put fuel in the pan though.
art
Super Member
For the shaft seal that I refered to you would not have on that style of injection pump. The cold cylinder could very well be a fuel problem of too much, not to little!!!!!
Normally when injectors are not right the engine actually will run warmer from lack of fuel because you have no lubrication and more friction!!!!!
My thoughts are your getting to much fuel on number three!!! I'd pop out that plunger and try moving that to another cylinder and see if the problem moves then!!!
Normally when injectors are not right the engine actually will run warmer from lack of fuel because you have no lubrication and more friction!!!!!
My thoughts are your getting to much fuel on number three!!! I'd pop out that plunger and try moving that to another cylinder and see if the problem moves then!!!
OP
Dallas_Lilly
Gold Member
I did swap all of the guts from the injector pump from #3 to #2 when I first got the pump back, that did not change #3 cylinder. I also tried swapping inectors.
I went over to the machine shop this after noon and he had check the contact pattern with the valve and the seat. Not one valve was making seating like it should have, and number 3 was the worst. He was not sure if he had enough material on the valves to grind and make them seat properly but he was going to give it a try.
I asked him what would cause this to happen and he said that having the valves adjusted too tight will cause this. I did adjust them when the tractor had 400 hours on it a couple of years ago. I may have goofed that up and got them to tight. I will sure pay close attention when I put all this back together!
I really hope this fixes it!
Short Game
Veteran Member
A wise man once told me, "better so loose you can hear 'em, than so tight you can smell 'em.
OP
Dallas_Lilly
Gold Member
A very wise man indeed, I really should have known better:ashamed: I will next time guaranteed!
The machine shop called last night and was able to grind all the valves and get them to seat properly. :thumbsup: I got on the horn this morning to order gaskets and valve stem seals. I found that if you order them from a LS tractor dealer the head gasket is $148.95, I found a company in Florida on the internet that has the S4L engine in generator and they only wanted $33.88 for a head gasket, same part number. He assured me they were genuine Mitsubishi parts.
art
Super Member
I do get a little testy when it comes to doing machine shop work on engines and I worry about this although I know that different engines have different reserves. It scares me when the fellow doing the work wonders if there is enough to grind.
I'd be looking for a manual or someone that might know what the valve protrusion should be on that engine. This ensures that the valves are sticking out of the head enough so compression isn't lost because of them sitting to deep in the head.
I've seen thicker aftermarket head gaskets that made engine starting virtually impossible without either. Do your homework here and you should be right for some time.
I'd be looking for a manual or someone that might know what the valve protrusion should be on that engine. This ensures that the valves are sticking out of the head enough so compression isn't lost because of them sitting to deep in the head.
I've seen thicker aftermarket head gaskets that made engine starting virtually impossible without either. Do your homework here and you should be right for some time.
