Here I go again

   / Here I go again #1  

SwampmanLA

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
130
Merry Christmas to all................

I purchased my 422 in February 2008. Shortly after getting it home I had tram pump issues. It seems that the check valves were not holding in the tram pump and I had to swap it out. Well it is doing it again!!! Terry sent me a new pump but I have to swap it again. Is anyone else having tram pump failures? I wonder because in two months I am out of warranty and repairs are on my dime. I love this machine it is so handy, I do almost everything with it.

Swampmanla
 
   / Here I go again #2  
Did you get the filter from PT that will allow you to fine filter the tram circuit. It is very expensive, but it may be needed. Also are you doing the periodic filter change on the hydraulics.
I have about 700 hours on my 422 and no problems with tram pump so far.
Sorry about your problems.
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#3  
I have 82 hours on my 422 and am on my second filter. I did not know PT has a 'super' filter, I'll check into it.
 
   / Here I go again #4  
I have 82 hours on my 422 and am on my second filter. I did not know PT has a 'super' filter, I'll check into it.

It was priced at $700 when I checked many years ago, but it might be worth it in your case.
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#5  
OK Terry and this board say that my problem is rare so with two Rare failures on a single tractor it has to be something I'm doing or the tractor itself that is the cause of the failures. The only pump that is filtered on this tractor is the Tram pump, the one that is failing. I have no way to tell if the filter is plugged as it has no differential pressure indicator so all I can do is change the filter. A plugged filter could be the cause of this failure by causing cavatation in the tram pump, I guess. So the root cause could be dirty hydraulic oil, plugging the filter and resulting in cavatation in the pump.

A few questions come to mind:
1. Do PT filters have a bypass built in them and if so what pressure is it set at?
2. If I get the hydraulic oil analyzed what particulate value is acceptable?
3. If I change the oil can I assume that my tank will be clean after?
4. Will a filter in the PTO circuit clean to oil to an acceptable level?

Oh well the kids are here to open presents, Merry Christmas!
 
   / Here I go again #6  
I have a different model tractor so this information may not apply to yours. The filter attachment on my tractor has a port where a vacuum gage can be installed so that the amount of vacuum can be monitored. (Yes this is a supply side filter and it operates under vacuum. In my experience at a cold start the vacuum can climb to 20 but when the fluid warms it drops to less than 5.)
 
   / Here I go again #7  
OK Terry and this board say that my problem is rare so with two Rare failures on a single tractor it has to be something I'm doing or the tractor itself that is the cause of the failures. The only pump that is filtered on this tractor is the Tram pump, the one that is failing. I have no way to tell if the filter is plugged as it has no differential pressure indicator so all I can do is change the filter. A plugged filter could be the cause of this failure by causing cavatation in the tram pump, I guess. So the root cause could be dirty hydraulic oil, plugging the filter and resulting in cavatation in the pump.

A few questions come to mind:
1. Do PT filters have a bypass built in them and if so what pressure is it set at?
2. If I get the hydraulic oil analyzed what particulate value is acceptable?
3. If I change the oil can I assume that my tank will be clean after?
4. Will a filter in the PTO circuit clean to oil to an acceptable level?

Oh well the kids are here to open presents, Merry Christmas!


Just about every hyd filter has a bypass built in. You could also put another filter in parallel that would filter down to the 1 micron level.

You should know that the hyd fluid in the tram circuit is closed loop, and will use the same oil until some fluid is allowed to cycle through the case of the tram pump and back to the reservoir. I don't know if you have case drains on your wheel motors, but that oil is also sent back to the reservoir. If you think about it, the filtering system on the PT is not that great, in the fact that it is only filtering the charge pump oil, and it only does that when it has to make up oil lost or sent to case drains.

The PTO pump and the steering and lift pumps suck oil out of the reservoir, The reservoir is filtered in a round about way.

A PTO filter would work, and I believe someone has done that.

If you have anything breaking down in the tram circuit, such as metal shavings, rubber particles from hoses, etc, all this stuff will continue to circulate through the closed loop circuit. So even if you replace the pump, you should also clean out all the lines and wheel motors. If you are going to have the hydraulic fluid analyzed, be sure to get some fluid out of the tram circuit.
 
   / Here I go again #8  
If you think about it, the filtering system on the PT is not that great, in the fact that it is only filtering the charge pump oil, and it only does that when it has to make up oil lost or sent to case drains.

A PTO filter would work, and I believe someone has done that.

Actually the charge pump supplys the hydraulic cooler and that is continually flowing--typically 3-5 gallons per minute--so there is continuous filtering of fluid.

I have also installed a return filter on my mower so whenever I mow I am filtering the return from the PTO circuit.
 
   / Here I go again #9  
Actually the charge pump supplys the hydraulic cooler and that is continually flowing--typically 3-5 gallons per minute--so there is continuous filtering of fluid.

I have also installed a return filter on my mower so whenever I mow I am filtering the return from the PTO circuit.

Those figures seem high for this reason. Charge pumps usually pump about 10% of the main pumps capacity. If you calculate the HP required to run that pump, you would come out with a 30 GPM pump, would require 62 HP, and a 50 GPM pump would require 103 HP . Other than make up oil, it does help keep the tram pump cool.

When you are not mowing, do you connect the hyd lines together? Do you remember the cost of that high pressure filter and was it rated at 10 microns.
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#10  
The tram pump is a closed circuit, that changes everything. I assumed that once the oil circulated through the wheel motors it went back to the reservoir. With a closed circuit I would think the heat buildup would be horrible. Like you said, once debris is in the closed circuit it is in there for good. So if I have this correct, the only oil filtered is make up oil going to the tram circuit, unless I have a leak nothing gets filtered. Strange!!!
 
   / Here I go again #11  
Those figures seem high for this reason. Charge pumps usually pump about 10% of the main pumps capacity. If you calculate the HP required to run that pump, you would come out with a 30 GPM pump, would require 62 HP, and a 50 GPM pump would require 103 HP . Other than make up oil, it does help keep the tram pump cool.

When you are not mowing, do you connect the hyd lines together? Do you remember the cost of that high pressure filter and was it rated at 10 microns.
The charge pump is a relatively low pressure pump--a couple of hundred psi as I recall--so it doesn't require much power to move 3-5 gallons per minute.

As to the PTO filter it is mounted on the mower on the return side of the mower so it only is used when the mower is used. I did use a high pressure filter becaue of the restriction on the return line at the quick attach fitting on the PT. I purchased the filter at Surplus Center and my recollection of the price is about $200. I posted about it at the time I did the mod and if you search you can find the specific model and cost of the filter. I have a 10 micron filter in it.

Edit: the original post was in this thread: Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac
 
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   / Here I go again #12  
The tram pump is a closed circuit, that changes everything. I assumed that once the oil circulated through the wheel motors it went back to the reservoir. With a closed circuit I would think the heat buildup would be horrible. Like you said, once debris is in the closed circuit it is in there for good. So if I have this correct, the only oil filtered is make up oil going to the tram circuit, unless I have a leak nothing gets filtered. Strange!!!

I believe that the tram circuit is semi-closed with (as discussed by others) a 3 to 5 gallon makeup. The return to the reservoir goes through the oil cooler, at least according to my schematic. The inlet of the tram pump makeup goes through the filter. So there is cleaning and cooling of the tram circuit. No leak is required for oil to flow in and out of the tram circuit. This is according to the Wheel Motor Circuit drawing dated 8/3/98 that I got with my machine.
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#13  
I believe that the tram circuit is semi-closed with (as discussed by others) a 3 to 5 gallon makeup. The return to the reservoir goes through the oil cooler, at least according to my schematic. The inlet of the tram pump makeup goes through the filter. So there is cleaning and cooling of the tram circuit. No leak is required for oil to flow in and out of the tram circuit. This is according to the Wheel Motor Circuit drawing dated 8/3/98 that I got with my machine.

At least you have a schematic, I have nothing. Would it be possible for you to scan the schematic and post it for the less fortunate, like me?
 
   / Here I go again #14  
Hey swamp, stinks that your having these troubles. Did you get an owners manual when you bought it? Mine came with 7 pages of schematics. My wheel circuit page is dated 7/20/04.

Kris
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Yes I was given a booklet of part pictures, but no schematics were included.
 
   / Here I go again
  • Thread Starter
#16  
I would love to educate myself on this pump but I don't know the brand or model. From these picture can anyone here identify at least the brand so that I can begin the search?
 

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   / Here I go again #17  
I dont remember the final result but I do believe someone identified the brand with the same "omega" symbol ....not sure if they could narrow it down to the same pump though..
Kris
 
   / Here I go again #18  
I believe that the tram circuit is semi-closed with (as discussed by others) a 3 to 5 gallon makeup. The return to the reservoir goes through the oil cooler, at least according to my schematic. The inlet of the tram pump makeup goes through the filter. So there is cleaning and cooling of the tram circuit. No leak is required for oil to flow in and out of the tram circuit. This is according to the Wheel Motor Circuit drawing dated 8/3/98 that I got with my machine.

Maybe this article will make it more clear.

Because the pump and motor leak internally, allowing fluid to escape from the loop and drain back to the reservoir, a fixed-displacement pump called a charge pump is used to ensure that the loop remains full of fluid during normal operation.

In practice, the charge pump not only keeps the loop full of fluid, it pressurizes the loop to pressures between 110 and 360 PSI, depending on the transmission manufacturer. A simple charge pressure circuit comprised of the charge pump, a relief valve and two check valves, through which the charge pump can replenish the transmission loop (Figure 3). Once the loop is charged to the pressure setting of the relief valve, the flow from the charge pump passes over the relief valve and back to the reservoir.

Apart from losses through internal leakage, which are made up by the charge pump, the same fluid circulates continuously between transmission pump and motor. This means if the transmission is heavily loaded, the fluid circulating in this loop can overheat. To ensure the fluid in the transmission loop is exchanged with that in the reservoir and subsequently cooled, a flushing valve is installed in the circuit.

When the hydrostatic transmission is in neutral, the flushing valve has no function and charge pressure is maintained by the charge relief valve, usually located in the transmission pump. When the transmission is operated in either forward or reverse, the flushing valve operates so that charge pressure in the low-pressure side of the loop is maintained by the purge relief valve incorporated in the flushing valve. This purge relief valve is set approximately 30 PSI lower than the charge pump relief valve.

The effect of this is that cool, conditioned fluid drawn from the reservoir by the charge pump, charges the low-pressure side of the loop through a check valve located close to the transmission pump inlet. The volume of hot fluid leaving the motor outlet, which is not required to maintain charge pressure in the low-pressure side of the loop, vents across the flushing valve purge relief and back to the reservoir.

The hydraulic system used on our PT's, are Closed Loop, even though the reservoir is not sealed. The fluid travels through the tram pump through the motors and back to the input of the tram pump. Any other fluid not needed by the closed system, is probably dumped into pump drain and then to reservoir. Some of our wheel motors have motor case drains, and they either combine and go through the tram pump or go through the cooler to the reservoir. There seems to be a flusher type valve on some pumps that relieve the oil from the pump case to cooler to reservoir.

If your tram pump can pump , say 8 GPM, that is 480 GPH at max speed, and the smaller machines only have a 10 gal tank. whereas the larger units have 20 gal tank/reservoir. the oil will heat up quite rapidly. They say to keep the oil below 180 degrees

I think if anybody really wants to know, just put a flow meter in the cooler circuit and you will have an idea of the amount of oil that is being filtered.
 
   / Here I go again #20  
The Omega brand was identified as Bondioli & Pavesi.
 

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