help... snows coming & the ck20 will not run

jimb1724 · Jan 22, 2005

i need some help from those with diesel experience... it's been bitterly cold the last few days (-15F at night 0F during the day)... and it's snowing pretty hard right now... anyway, i went out to run the ck20 and it started, but stalled right out... as i expected, the filter was gelled... i took it off and cleaned it.... let it thaw out in the house for a while.... then i poured some anti gel additive over the filter then put it back on... tractor started, but wouldn't stay running... now i am thinking that i might have some bad fuel (it has been above temps up until now, so i never thought about adding the anti gel additive to the full tank of diesel on the tractor.... )
does anyone have some ideas that i should try..... i really need that rig running tommorow to move some snow..... also, what is the replacement fuel filter part # ? thanks....
jim

JimR · Jan 22, 2005

Heat the filter up and blow it out with an air gun. Pour a gallon of kerosene into your tank to thin out your diesel. You will be back in business for the snow. We are getting hit pretty hard right now in central Ma.

jimb1724 · Jan 22, 2005

JimR
thanks, i'll try that in the morning... do you run a mix of diesel and kerosene all winter? if so, do you still use an anti gelling additive ?

goold luck with your snow.... i heard you guys were going to get hit preety hard.....

thanks

jimb

JimR · Jan 22, 2005

JimB,

I only run kerosene if I have a problem like you mention. I did have this same problem when I was running home heating oil. I do not use an anti-gel additive. I run only pump diesel now. It is much cleaner and I have had no more problems with sputtering and dirty clogged fuel filter.

Bob_Skurka · Jan 22, 2005

We run a fleet of diesel trucks, our biggest problem with gelling in diesel fuel is in the fuel lines and the filter. You cleaned out the filter. You may still need to deal with your fuel lines. First, I would do exactly what you were instructed to do in the previous post. If you don't have access to Kero, then get some commercial anti-gel. PowerService is the best known brand, but any of the anti-gel products should work. Second, you need to get the fuel lines as warm as you possibly can (without starting a fire or doing anything that would be risky). If your tractor is in a garage, shed or barn then you need to get a heat source somewhere near it, radient heat works well. In the worst case you can use something as simple as your wife's hair dryer.

The problem is that when the temps get as low as they are, you need to get the gelled fuel out of those fuel lines. Put kero or anti-gel in the fuel and try to start the tractor. If it will stay running then you are in great shape, the process of running will bring thinned fuel into the lines, once you have that you should be in pretty good shape. The gelled fuel in the fuel lines can prevent fuel flow from the tank.

jimb1724 · Jan 22, 2005

Bob

thanks for your reply... i do have some kero so i will add it the morning... if i can keep it running long enough i will put it in the garage and try to warm it up with the kero heater.. safely of course....

thanks again
jim

Bob_Skurka · Jan 22, 2005

Add the kero NOW. The temps will drop all night and the situation could easily compound. If you thin the fuel now, it will have time to dilute through the tank. Tomorrow when you start the tractor, the the fuel will already be thinned and you will have a better chance of keeping it running.

KiotiJohn · Jan 23, 2005

Jim, I was just wondering why you're having a gelling problem. Are you using fuel that was bought in the summer? The distributors of diesel fuel usually have the winter blend at the pump this time of year, I suppose starting with the first cold weather.
Generally speaking, I believe you should make the mix 80/20 diesel/kero. That's the figure I've read is the mix from distributors. Bob and others have given you good advice. Let us know how it goes. Stay warm! John

Bob_Skurka · Jan 23, 2005

I was just wondering why you're having a gelling problem. Are you using fuel that was bought in the summer? The distributors of diesel fuel usually have the winter blend at the pump this time of year 

 it's been bitterly cold the last few days (-15F at night 0F during the day) 

John & Jim, the diesel blend is available at most local gas stations and truck stops is typically not good enough for weather that is that cold, at least it is not good enough in the greater Chicago <northern 1/2 of Illinois, northern 1/2 of Indiana, lower Michigan & lower Wisconsin> fuel market where my fleet runs.

When the temps have a HIGH in the single digets, the fuel needs some additional help. And if you have bio-diesel it actually needs additional help when the temps are in the upper 20's. The biggest problems we face are when the temperatures are low for prolonged periods lasting several days. As I have said in other threads, our biggest problems are not gelling in the tank, they are gelling in the fuel lines. Fuel lines are often more exposed, have a very high surface to contents ratio and can clog up easily and when that happens there is NO WAY to get fuel from the tank to the engine. Cleaning out the filter doesn't resolve the problem, it simply gives you a clean filter that can't get fuel because the inflowing fuel line is clogged. If you are lucky the lines are not completely gelled, once you get "thinned" or "treated" fuel flowing thru them, they will slowly open up and you won't have a problem.

Generally when the temps drop into the "teens" we treat our fleet trucks with an anti-gel product. My tractors are kept in unheated garages, I worry less, but still typically treat the fuel if I know the temps are going into the teens and I get worried if the temps are dropping to Zero and I didn't treat the fuel yet. Much of this depends on your fuel source and how well it was treated by the fuel supplier who delivered it to you or to the gas station you bought it from.

jimb1724 · Jan 23, 2005

KiotiJohn and Bob

i just purchased some diesel from the local station... however, it was a separate pump, by the regular gas pumps.... not the pumps where the trucks fill..... i'm wondering if the fuel wasn't winter grade ? i don't know if the pump i used feeds off of the same underground tank.... i would think it does....

anyway, as Bob said, when the temps get this low everything needs a little extra help.... i've learned my lesson.... i'll be using the additive year round, plus a higher mix starting in october.....

thanks everyone for your responses...... i'm still trying to get it running smooth.... can't get it warm enough yet...

jimb

Bob_Skurka · Jan 23, 2005

i just purchased some diesel from the local station... however, it was a separate pump, by the regular gas pumps.... not the pumps where the trucks fill..... 

Jim . . . My truck fleet fills up at a service station we have a contract with, I fill my fuel cans for my tractors at a diesel pump that is in front of a supermarket or the gas station in town and neither of those places get any real truck traffic, it seems like most of the diesel they pump is going into pick up trucks or into containers for use in tractors. I'm sure the fuel suppliers in my area all treat their fuel in the winter, I don't think it makes too much difference what the source is or where you get your fuel.

As for getting your tractor warm enough . . . consider yourself lucky that you got it running! Just try to keep it running. Fuel line gel problems, just like fuel filter gelling, simply prevent fuel from getting to the injectors. If your fuel is flowing, and if you thinned it with Kero or an anti-gel then it should slowly open up the lines. But if the filter is waxed up, you want to physically take it off and clean it out.

jimb1724 · Jan 23, 2005

JimR and Bob

THANK YOU !!!! just got done playing in the snow with the kioti!!!!!

thanks for your help guys... i got it warm(er) and running with the help of the kersone heater and a hair dryer aimed at the tank and lines, took off the fuel filter and cleaned out all the gel .... after i was sure it was running normally again i cycled the bucket to warm up the hydraulics and away i went.... ran for a couple of hours and ran just like new..... i think i'm set for now, as i did put about 1/2 gal of kero and some of the anti-gel additive in the tank....

thanks again...

jim

Harrygoodwrench · Jan 23, 2005

Jim, do yourself a favor. I am in the Northeast too up in NY. Get some "anti-gel" additive and you will never be let down. I get my fuel and add the measured amount, it helps all around even as a injection pump lube. Many brands are good I'd say. I've used power surge on trucks to get them un-froze so to speak. It happens when trucks come from down South up to the cold temps.
Sure beats trying to play in the cold.

MajMac392 · Jan 23, 2005

Jim,

It looks like you got your problem taken care of but I just had the same problem with my Cub Cadet. I normally keep the tractor in a basement garage but I had to move it this week outdoors. I dreaded trying to start it on Thursday because it was a little over 0 degrees. It finally started and I let it warm up for several minutes and was able to make just one pass up my driveway. Then it started running pretty bad, no power and I finally got it back in the garage. I always put in a diesel additive so I was real surprised to see the filter all crudded up. I decided to change the filter, and drain the fuel because it was only about 1/2 full. I put fresh fuel in it with additive, Power Service I believe it was. That took care of it but I still don't understand why it gelled up even with the additive. I always buy all my fuel at truckstop places that I figure will have fairly fresh fuel. I'm glad you got it running again, not fun when they are broken!

KiotiJohn · Jan 23, 2005

( That took care of it but I still don't understand why it gelled up even with the additive. I always buy all my fuel at truckstop places that I figure will have fairly fresh fuel. I'm glad you got it running again, not fun when they are broken! )
Now, I'm no expert, but I believe the Power Service comes in different configurations. Are you sure it had the anti gel properties, or was it only a cetane booster and lube? Also, maybe the weather was just so cold that you need more than you put in? Sure does seem strange since you were prob. using winter blend AND the additive, right? Once again, I'm SO glad I don't have to go through all of that. The snow CAN be fun when it's other people's problem. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif John

Bob_Skurka · Jan 23, 2005

I'm not one of the PowerService boosters here on TBN. I've got nothing against it, in fact we are trying it this year in our truck fleet. BUT in my tractors I use a product called Arctic Express from Gold Eagle Corp. In fact, on the back of some of the bottles of PowerService it recommends using Arctic Express if the fuel will be sitting for some time. PowerService is guaranteed not to gel . . . if the engine is in constant use. Hmmm. Constant use? Don't know about anyone else, but mine doesn't run 24 hours a day. I suspect PowerService is a good product, but I favor anti-gel treatments to engine conditioners that have anti-gel properties.

And John, as for the snow, you simply don't know what you are missing! I just got back from a week about in Florida (about 75 miles south of where you are) and could not wait to get back up to play in the snow! When I was down there it was 80 degrees and sunny during the days but in the winter I really want SNOW.

KiotiJohn · Jan 23, 2005

( And John, as for the snow, you simply don't know what you are missing! I just got back from a week about in Florida (about 75 miles south of where you are) and could not wait to get back up to play in the snow! When I was down there it was 80 degrees and sunny during the days but in the winter I really want SNOW. )
Well, you can sure have mine! I'm leaving on 2/2 to go to Mexico and get away from this little cold we have here!
Actually, I'm just going for carnival, but the warm weather will be wonderful. John

DK35vince · Jan 24, 2005

John,
According to my thermometer its currently 7 degrees below zero here in Western, Pa.
Brrr...

KiotiJohn · Jan 24, 2005

( John,
According to my thermometer its currently 7 degrees below zero here in Western, Pa.
Brrr... )
Vince, to me that's a masterpiece of understatement! BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR is more like it. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

aosbill · Jan 25, 2005

With all the talk about fuel line freeze up on TBN, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Stanadyne Performance Formula additive. I live in central Ma. and it has been extremely cold, in the single digits, and I have had no problems with fuel line freeze ups all winter. I buy my diesel at a station down the street that cannot service semi trucks so I know they probably don't sell alot of diesel. I'm pretty sure however that the diesel sold in New England in the sinter months is treated. That is no guarantee that your fuel line won't freeze up however. So with the added protection with the Stanadyne all season diesel fuel conditioner, you get added protection from freeze-ups, lowers fuel pour point as much as 40 Deg. F., increased fuel cetane rating, combats rust and corrosion,and cleans and lubricates the fuel injection system. 1 Bottle takes care of 60 gallons. I've been faithfully adding the required amount to my 5 gallon can since I purchased my tractor in May. I was told by my friend in Northern Maine, who rebuilds injector pumps and injectors, that the Stanadyne is the best product he has seen to lubricate the injection system on all diesels. The EPA has mandated a new ruling some time ago that removed some of the lubricating properties of diesel fuel, making an additive to replace it almost mandatory. My friend has told me that he has seen some pretty radical damage from injector pumps used without an additive since the new ruling went into effect. Since even before the ruling though, he recommended that ALL diesels use an aftermarket additive to help lubricate the injection system. He has said that the Stanadyne product appears to be working the best with keeping injector systems lubricated well and by inhibiting the diesel from freeze up in the winter. I'm no advocate for any particular product, just stating what is working for me. The Stanadyne product can be found on the web by using google search for Stanadyne. Good luck