Help for Newbe Looking For New Tractor

[Anonymous Poster]

Subvet: Your post describing the amount of ground and what you are doing, etc triggers me to make an alternative suggestion. You did not say if you do any gardening (in addition to taking care of the ground), but, if I were in your position and knew that is the amount I had to take care of, I would buy a new BSC two wheel tractor to replace my old gravelies. I know a 4 wheel tractor is "neater", but functionally, a well made two wheel tractor will do the job for you. A complete outfit included dozer blade, tiller that will dig 6" or more, a rotary plow that will make a nifty planting area (for grass or garden) 10"-12" deep, snow blower, finish mower, bush hog mower deck, chipper shredder, sickle bar (that can cut 1"-2" saplings, along with a rider for when you don't want to walk behind, will set you back around 10k and do everything you want. There are even reversible tedders, hay and sileage bailers, tilting carts, etc available. These machines are used in Europe to run small farms, especially on sloping grounds. I have a 6.6 hp gravely with dual wheels that mows (pulling me behind) up hills, pushes 6" and more snow (easy), tills my garden etc. I am attaching a link to a dealer. Check it out.
Also . . . re: hydro vs geared, mossroad's (David's) nifty little story about moving a dirt pile is right on the money. IF, I said IF, that's all you are going to do he is absolutely correct. For going back and forth at lower speeds, again IF that's all you are going to do, a hydro is a good choice. But . . . I respectfully suggest that for any given engine HP, the laws of physics show that you will get less hp out the back if a higher % of that hp is driving a transmission hydraulic pump. Further, the frictional loss in a "fluid" is far greater than with a mechanical gear. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand simple physical laws. Also, there is a safety issue. Imagine you are going from one place to another at 10-12 mph (assuming you can get the hydro to that speed) and an emergeny comes up. Your natural reaction is to lift your foot from the accelerator and jam on the brakes. Try that on a hydro (don't try it-just imagine it-you seem like a nice guy-I wouldn't want to see you go over the hood!). Regarding shuttle shifting with a geared tractor, mossroad is correct-you do (usually-some tractors have hydraulic activated shifting with the shuttle) have to press the clutch, however, you do not have to let go of the wheel. Thumb hooked over steering wheel, fingers do the shift from F to R or back. Another issue is one of control. You have more complete control over the tractor with a clutch and gears. Period. Also, try using your hydro to park on a hill that's a bit steep just for the brakes (and, don't try that except as an experiment). Read a thread in the Kubota Use area you'll see what I mean-his hydro tractor got stuck on a hill and the brakes wouldn't hold it. I'm not "against" hydros, for some uses they are much more convenient than geared tractors-I have operated and rented different equipment with hydros. But, overall, for most uses, the hydro is less safe, chews up HP, costs more, costs more to fix and is really unneccessary.
Anyway, take care. Hope I havn't pissed you hydro folks off too much. JEH

www.bcssmallfarmequip.com

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Thank You All for your opinions, and experiences.
This is the progress I have made, I have driven the JD 2110 and the JD X575. I had a look at the BX2200, but did no get a chance to drive it, I plan on going back to give it a whirl, and same with the TC18. I used to drive a old Cub 102 and after I got my Simplicity 4211H with HST it was much nicer to drive and it has lasted about 20 yrs and still going, I think the HST will be ok. I agree a gear drive is alot easier to fix, I myself have rebuilt a couple manual car trannies, but auto is easier to drive, espeacially if my "finacial counselor" decides she wants to give it a spin. Based on all your feedback I have read, I think I have ruled out the BX1500, BX1800, and the JD X575. The JD 2110 and TC-18 are close in pricing, the BX2200 is about $2K less. But the TC18 seems a little beefyer than the other two which is a + for a possible future back hoe?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

HI,

This is a good place to get a lot of alternative ideas for sure!

I can relate to most of what Grimreaper posted, except for

<font color=blue>Another issue is one of control. You have more complete control over the tractor with a clutch and gears. Period. </font color=blue>

With my hydro I can back down a grade, stop, and start back up with complete control and never disconnecting my engine from the drive train.

I would imagine with a gear tractor there is a period of time where the brakes must be applied , and the engine disconnected by the clutch, manually or otherwise, during the directional change...

Now if a gear drive tractor operator somehow misses the shift, and lets off the brakes while releasing the clutch, expecting the engine to pull him up, but instead the tractor starts backwards...possible panic could [ if he is the wimp I could be]...you see where I am leading.

Seems like the hst in this kind of situation might be superior, rather than inferior, to a gear tractor. Minimizes the chance for a mistake to cause a bad thing to happen.

So...I guess my reading glasses don't see that "period" as being as big as others might /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bill in Pgh, PA

 

[Anonymous Poster]

AGAIN WITH SHUTTLE SHIFT IT IS DIFFERENT THAN STRAIGHT GEAR, OH WHO CARES ANYWAY BUY WHATEVER TRACTOR YOU WANT AND ENJOY IT! SORRY IF ANYBODY IS OFFENDED BUT WHERE ELSE CAN YOU DEBATE TRACTORS!

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Bill: Ah well . . . yes, if you miss the shift, you're right. However, I hate to point this out but with a hydro the engine is permanently disconnected from the rear end, or, more exactly the connection is via hydraulic fluid. Just think what happens when the trans pump stops working! That's the whole point of a hydro and why you have infinite speeds (unlike the geared). I agree the hydro allows much finer (smaller increments) moving. I'm not against hydros. I have used them myself. In certain conditions they are MUCH easier to use than the geared. If all I were going to do was F/R loader work, or if the machine was going to be used by lots of different people (some with little experience operating a tractor) I wouldn't buy any but a hydro. But I stand by the points made.
Sub: If you're seriously thinking of getting a BH later, please consider something bigger than a TC18 (or equivalent in Kub or whatever). WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK OF USING A BH ON A TC18???
JEH

 

[Bird]

Gosh, John, you say <font color=blue>I'm not "against" hydros</font color=blue>, then you proceed to give all the reasons you are against them.

Now I've used a number of both geared and HST tractors and I know there are applications where a geared tractor is better, but you say <font color=blue>there is a safety issue</font color=blue>, and I agree that there is, and you indicate that you believe the geared tractor is safer. We've already beat this subject to death on the forum in the past because there are those who believe a geared tractor is "as safe", but I guess you're the first I ever heard of to say the geared tractor is safer, and I think the vast majority of us know/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif that the HST is safer, especially for new operators.

You use as an example <font color=blue>an emergeny comes up. Your natural reaction is to lift your foot from the accelerator and jam on the brakes. Try that on a hydro</font color=blue>. OK, I have, except of course you don't have to actually hit the brakes. Simple physics tells you that you can take your foot off the hydro pedal quicker than you can lift your foot from somewhere else and get it on the brakes (and preferably a clutch pedal, too) on the geared tractor. Seems to me that you refute your own argument./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

And I don't guess I understand your point when you say <font color=blue>his hydro tractor got stuck on a hill and the brakes wouldn't hold it</font color=blue>. If the brakes on my hydro wouldn't hold the tractor, I can guarantee the brakes on a geared tractor wouldn't either. When the brakes lock the wheels, the wheels are locked; makes no difference what kind of transmission the tractor has (or whether it even has one for that matter/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif).

<font color=blue>the hydro is less safe</font color=blue> Sorry, but that statement is an absolute error.

<font color=blue>chews up HP</font color=blue> OK, no argument, as does an automatic transmission, air-conditioner, etc. on your car. How much is convenience and time worth?

<font color=blue>costs more</font color=blue> Sure does, and worth every penny./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

<font color=blue>costs more to fix</font color=blue> Don't know about that; never had to have one fixed, but since brakes and clutches will last longer, is the maintenance costs really that much different? Like I said, I don't know.

<font color=blue>is really unneccessary.</font color=blue> That's a fact, we used to make do just fine with geared machines, and in fact, the tractor is unnecessary; we used to use horses and mules, shovels and wheelbarrows . . .. Hmm, I guess you say most of the equipment we use now-a-days is "unnecessary", but it sure is nice, ain't it?/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

<font color=blue>Hope I havn't pissed you hydro folks off</font color=blue> Not at all; geared tractors are the proper choice for some users and some applications, but hope you don't mislead a new user into buying something he'll regret later when he learns how much easier, faster, and safer he can do his work with an HST.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

One of the reasons I selected the Hydro transmission had to do with the control you have while running implements. My property is steep and when you get to the bottom of a hill you need to reduce ground speed to make a turn. With a gear transmission you have to reduce engine speed to make the turn safely which reduces the RPMs of your implement. With a Hydo you can maintain implement RPMs while reducing ground speed. It makes a difference, especially when mowing.

John

 

[MikePA]

<font color=blue>Be aware there apparently is a long standing debate on this point.</font color=blue>
Hi Bill, nothing apparent about it /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif. It's longstanding and it almost always starts when someone states an opinion posing as a fact, e.g., {fill in the blank} is always {fill in the blank}.

 

[crown]

Sub-vet,
You may also want to take a look at the Kubota B-7500 while your at the Kubota dealer, I own that make and have 6 acres to care for it has performed flawlessly, the one advantage it may have over the BX is ground clearance if you have any futher bush hogging to do. I also will chime in on the HST bandwagon personally feel it is well worth it. All the tractors you mentioned should do the job fine, heck shopping is half the fun./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Gravelies are very versatile machines. My father had one. The city school system uses them here, but only for snow clearing.

I agree and acknowledge that less of the engines HP gets to the rear end of a tractor with a gear vs an HST. I always have. However, by wording it, "if you by an HST, you will lose power" with no explaination, a person new to tractors could be led to believe the HSTs are dogs. They aren't, as attested to by so many here at TBN.

As for my example about moving a dirt pile, it could also be applied to mowing around trees and bushes, plowing snow in a driveway, or just about any other common function that we do with our CUTs.

Top speed on my PT425 is 9mph. Top speed on my IH2500b is 19mph. If I need to stop suddenly on the little tractor, i just let off the pedal and it stops quickly, not harshly. As for the big tractor, it has built in cushioning so that you cannot slam it to a stop or reverse accidentally with the directional pedals. You can read an excerpt from its operating manual<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=genbuy&Number=217999&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=ih2500b&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Old=allposts&Main=216646> by clicking here</A> if you want. It gives a good example of operating the tractor, but is too long to post here again.

As for shifting the shuttle with your thumb hooked over the wheel, you are absolutely correct. You take your grip off the wheel to flip the turn signal type lever, hit a rut and break your thumb. OK, I'm just nitpicking now /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. It is no more dangerous than the spinner knob on a steering wheel, so I'll conceed that a shuttle is less dangerous than a true gear tranny. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

As for having more complete control over the tractor with gears... all I can say is nuetral down a steep hill isn't the ride I want to take. My PT425 doesn't have neutral. It is permanently engaged and it is permanent 4 wheel drive. If the engine dies, the unit can't move due to the pressure of the hydraulic fluid.

<font color=blue>Hope I havn't pissed you hydro folks off too much.</font color=blue>

Not a chance. You have some great comments. I read your posts and enjoyed reading about purchasing your tractor. Your reasoning on purchasing the cemetery bucket was right on. I looked at the TC21D, among others, before deciding on my Power Track. The NH tractors were by far the most comfortable of the bunch. The PT425 just suited my needs better. And that's what I hope SubVet gets... the tractor that suites his needs best, whatever brand that ends up being. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MossRoad]

<font color=blue>WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK OF USING A BH ON A TC18???</font color=blue>

Hmm. Is it beefy enough to support it? Do they make a sub-frame mount BH for the TC18? Would you use the on-board hydraulics or a pump on the PTO?

Personally, a BH is a big dollar investment. If you can afford it, go for it. Right now, I can't justify the cost VS renting a tracked mini excavator every few years. I just don't have enough jobs for one.... but in a few years I might /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MossRoad]

<font color=blue>WHERE ELSE CAN YOU DEBATE TRACTORS?</font color=blue>

At least we agree on that, Kiotiguy... /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Take care.

 

[FamilyFarm]

SubVet,

Welcome to THE forum (and to the never ending debate of gears vs HST).
You probably are aware of this, but if you are interested in the Kubota BX and want a backhoe, you will have to get it as a package deal in the BX22. You will not be able to add one to the BX2200. If you are interested in 'light' backhoe work and don't mind taking your time, the BX22 backhoe will do an amazing amount of work. The limiting factor is the light weight of the tractor as the hoe can move the tractor around if you get too aggressive. This will be true for most of the compact tractors until you get into the L series Kubota or similiar size of other brand where you get a much heavier tractor.
The low stance of the BX will be better for you on the slopes. As mentioned, the ground clearance is less with the BX if that is a problem for you. I have used mine in the woods, on slopes, and in some rough ground - so far never a problem with the ground clearance. I don't use it in the woods with the mid-mount mower attached and I avoid driving over logs!
Best wishes, take your time to make the best decision, enjoy this forum!

Terry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Mossroad: Oops. I guess the hydro vs geared issue is viewed as a sort of "religious" argument. The bottom line is that in a hydro power is transmitted from the engine via hydraulic fluid vs direct mechanical transmission (no pun intended). That fact, which no one seems to question, has certain consequences. The argument seems to be over the consequences. Ah, well. Better drop that.
But I would hope there would be no arguments about using a BH on something that size. NH does provide a subframe for its BHs. But the NH hoes are more expensive than 3rd party units-so people might be tempted to buy a less expensive, 3 point mounted BH. I know of one case (related by a NH dealer) where someone bought a 3 point hitch BH (from a 3rd party manufacturer) and ended up snapping the tractor in two (the twisting stresses in certain operations are very great). NH repaired it but they no long recommend their mid sized hoe on smaller units which they used to do. If Subvet is planning to use a BH on a smaller tractor (I guess they are called sub-compacts) he needs to be made aware of this. At the least, he should stick with a branded BH supplied by the manufacturer (whether NH, Kub or whomever). John

 

[akman]

Hi SubVet,

After sifting through all the thread creep here I just realized we're almost neighbors!

We live in Oxford, PA just over the border from you. They used a hill across the pasture from me during the initial survey of the Mason Dixon line years ago!

Anyway, I was in your situation this time last year. Shopped Deer Creek(JD), Burke - Newark Kubota, Stoltzfus Farm Equip. (Kubota), and Ag-Industrial (Rising Sun NH) before settling on Burke - Newark DE Kubota.

We had slightly different needs than yourself. After much shopping and comparing found Kubota to be the best overall deal for us. Most bang for the dollar, and best overall quality (Just our opinion guys).

Deer Creek at the time did not seem interested in the "cutting the deal" department. I guess we were too small a customer for them. They seemed to like working with the large farm operations compared to the small vineyard we are. They have a reputation for the highest prices in our area.

Ag-Industrial NH was much more competitive and friendly, but we were not convinced the NH line was a good fit for us.

Marvin at Stoltzfus Farm Service Kubota in Gap, PA was competitive and friendly and relatively close to home, but when it came to numbers time, Newark DE Kubota was the clincher. Erich Reichelt, the General Manager will give you a fair deal. Either one of these dealers I would highly recommend.

We do ALL of our own regular service here so the old Dealer value addage did not apply, it was strictly a business decision with no emotion allowed. We actually have a good business relationship with Stoltzfus for all of our service parts and other stuff.

We couldn't be happier with our Kubota and at thousands less than a comparable Deere.

Keep shopping and use the excellent info here at TBN. Having TBN was a godsend for us and still is. The wealth of information and all the friendly good people willing to share their opinions is an enormous asset !

Good Luck,


Tony

 

[hazmat]

<font color=blue>WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK OF USING A BH ON A TC18???</font color=blue>

I think it would handle one just fine. New Holland's 756? model is designed to fit it with a subframe. It runs off the tractor hydraulics.

Granted it's not even on the same page as a "real" backhoe (Case 580 or Deere 310 etc.) It will not dig a foundation for a new house, but it will do a great job for light trenching & stump removal.

Please rememeber we are talking about homeowner use on a 2.5 acre lot here, not commercial use.

 

[RayBee]

<font color=orange>If you're seriously thinking of getting a BH later, please consider something bigger than a TC18 (or equivalent in Kub or whatever).</font color=orange> My equivalent Kub tractor with HST is doing just nicely, Thank You /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gifand at around 1500 rpms for most jobs what is the worry/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif about lost HP if you don't need it./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ...RayBee(a picture is worth at least 1000 words??) /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[RayBee]

Here's the photo. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

 

[RayBee]

Maybe, this time.? ..Dang /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif (Mohammed is this server a gear driven or HST?)

 

[Anonymous Poster]

i have a two stage clutch, so my implement does not slow down.