Hello everyone and a HST vs SYNCHRO tranny question!

[k0ua]

Another vote for HST, my property is heavily wooded, and getting around in it without getting hung on a tree, is much easier with HST, I have had 5 tractors, 2 gear and 3 HST, and HST is best for moving slowly and doing precise work. The best thing for you would be to drive slowly around some obstacles with both types and see which one you like the best. You can learn to maneuver around precisely with a gear driven tractor, it just takes more skill, and a longer learning curve.

James K0UA

 

[blueluke]

Hey thanks all! I did not expect so many answers in such a short time
Off to work for now, I will think of it all during the day (will be in ''automatic mode'' today at work) and comme back later tonight.
Luc

 

[SSdoxie]

Luc,
Since the Kioti sales rep was the one that got you started in this delima of HST versus shuttle ask him why he did not show you a CK35 gear/shuttle. He probably does not stock one because it would be priced in between the DS3510 & CK35HST. The CK35 shuttle has the same open "walk through platform" and ergonomics as the HST. Is 3 inches higher in ground clearance than the DS, is 1.5" wider wheel base & 650 lbs. heavier (for better stablity), & is synchronized shuttle and transmission for easier shifting. The DS is constant mesh transmission & shuttle so requires coming to complete stop before changing gear or direction.

 

[aczlan]

For tight work in the woods, loader work, etc. HST is the way to go.
We have a Kubota L3830 with GST (syncro+automatic wet clutch, no manual clutching to change gears or directions) and a B7500 with HST, the HST on the B7500 makes it much easier to go forward and back in small increments and to wiggle around stuff.

Aaron Z

 

[Buckgnarly]

Luc,
Since the Kioti sales rep was the one that got you started in this delima of HST versus shuttle ask him why he did not show you a CK35 gear/shuttle. He probably does not stock one because it would be priced in between the DS3510 & CK35HST. The CK35 shuttle has the same open "walk through platform" and ergonomics as the HST. Is 3 inches higher in ground clearance than the DS, is 1.5" wider wheel base & 650 lbs. heavier (for better stablity), & is synchronized shuttle and transmission for easier shifting. The DS is constant mesh transmission & shuttle so requires coming to complete stop before changing gear or direction.

Not true. You do need to stop when going back and forth, but not between gears. Though I rarely shift up in gears, you can do this on the fly. I usually pick the gear I need and start in that gear.


OP, there is only one person who can decide, and that is you. Balance cost, preference, experiences on here, and any other factor. I try to avoid any "absolute" recomendations on the net.:thumbsup:

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have both and HST and gear with shuttle shift. The HST is a small (26HP)Kubota B26 TLB (that's Tractor Loader Backhoe) and I wouldn't trade the 3 range HST in it for a gear drive if they threw in a solid gold monkey. It does have the skid plates under it for brush protection although the hydraulic filters (2) are still a bit exposed but if they were any more covered, I couldn't get to them to change them. I have used it recently for under brushing and had some sticks jam in up under the tractor and break off but not damage anything luckily. If you are going to be under brushing you definitely need to have a belly skid plate under the tractor to protect as much as possible. My gear drive is a much larger LS P7010C (70HP) and is much too large to maneuver in the woods plus it has a cab so I do limit it to not so confined spaces. I have used it extensively with the FEL digging a pond, cleaning out another one that dried up a bit, hauling dirt and rock when needed. Once you get used to the clutching and shifting it is not anymore difficult to use than an HST BUT is does tire your left leg a bit when doing lots of FEL work all day long.
If you have never driven a tractor, I would say go with the HST as far as transmission typ.

By adding a back hoe, the tractor becomes so very handy for grubbing out those unwanted trees selectively. I used mine to thin out a thicket of sweet gum trees that were so thick one could barely walk between some of them. But by using the Backhoe with the hydraulic thumb, I was able to selectively cull out the unwanted ones, pick up the downed tree and stack it out of the way while I worked thru the thicket. Afterward digging up all the trees I wanted to, I was able to then use the FEL to push them thru the remaining trees and into a burn pile.
If you have stumps in your forest, you must be extremely careful when using the tractor and especially the FEL as hitting a stump under the right conditions can damage the bucket and warp the FEL frame. A backhoe is a costly addition to any tractor though as it will add at least $7000 to the cost. I have used mine enough to justify the cost already in just 8 months of use and honestly I have just about finished up my projects, but still find occasional uses for it. So far in the last 2 months I have used it to bury dead animals twice for my brother in law which saved him a couple hundred bucks each time for not having to call someone else with a backhoe. I have dug up a bunch of stumps with it and rocks too large for it to handle, so in comes the LS to haul them away. Even large tree stumps can be removed with a small backhoe, it just takes patience and a little learning curve on how to get them out. I think you could also justify the cost of a back hoe in cleaning out your stump problem, thinning your trees and even landscaping your new home. My back being a high risk problem, I use the back hoe now rather than a shovel to plant trees, and such around the house rather than risk getting down in my back for a week or more from straining with a shovel.

To summarize my long winded post, get a tractor with HST preferable with a 3 range transmission rather than 2, telescopic lift arms on the 3 point hitch are to me a requirement as they are so much easier to hook up a rear implement with them than not having them. Also the side stabilizers that are adjustable by pulling a pin are also much better than the old turnbuckle style that requires a couple of wrenches to loosen or tighten and if you are like me, you aren't as nimble as a young kid so twisting to get into adjust them when you have something on the lift is about impossible. Get a tractor with telescoping side stabilizers also.
Backhoe is great addition if you can afford the initial cost. You would pay the cost of it, if you had to hire someone to come in and either dig up the stumps or grind them so you may as well own the equipment.
As for brand of tractor, they are all pretty much the same especially since many of them are built by the same company. I think Kioti builds some of the new Case IH CUT (formerly built by LS Mtron) New Holland boomers are built by LS Mtron) some of the John Deeres are subbed out to India and China manufacturers so brand isn't that much of an issue when buying. Pick one that feels right to you when you sit in the seat, see if all the controls are ergonomic for you when using, I didn't like the MF just for this reason.
Lastly evaluate the price and check several dealers. I did that pricing thing and sitting in the seat thing for all brands and ended up with the LS brand for best price, best quality and most ergonomic of the lot but you may not have a dealer close to you, but do a web search for LSTRACTOR and see, they are worth the look and will be thousands less than any of the other brands and have more standard equipment than others also.

 

[milkman636]

I have both transmissions as well. Physics dictates that you'll have to come to a stop to change directions with either one. You have to stop moving in one direction in order to move in the other. My gear transmission takes a litle more time with both hand and foot movements to accomplish the direction change. My HST is smoother and faster because I simply have to slide my foot off of one pedal and onto the other. The tractor smoothly changes directions in the process. Like others have said: for loader work HST is awesome.

The geared transmission has its upside too: you can run at lower engne speeds and stil get some grunt, use a foot throttle to feather engine speed as needed, keep both feet off the pedals and stand on the floor boards for visibility when needed. For most of the activities I use the back half of the tractor for a gear transmission is great.

I looked seriously at the DS series when they first came out. If I hadn't got the deal I did on my CT335 my second option may well have been a DS4510HS that was sitting on my local Kioti dealers lot. The HS offers a clutchless shift between Forward and Reverse. You might want to look at a 4110 or 4510 with the HS option.

The most important thing is to drive lots of tractors and buy what feels right to you.

 

[blueluke]

Maybe I am naive, but the finish forest stewardship is a method where you divide your land in patches of about 150' X 150' . The idea then, is that no tree will be further than 75 feet from a path. You then drive the tractor as close as possible, knowing that a 100' rope will take the stem out.
I have already used with great success this equipment: NovaJack It is slow but it keeps the 'tapis forestier' intact ( the forestal carpet... this is one of those occasions where you will have to beer... errrr to BEAR with me as I have no clue as to how the french expression translates! )
''Tapis forestier'' = the thin layer of black earth made of the accumulation and rotting of vegetal debris that forms the upper layer of the site, usually about 10 inches here.
It is very important to disturb as least as possible this layer as it is the natural environment to transplant the seedlings.
So my thinking of how I would use the tractor in forestry work is :
- the tractor will never go 'knee-deep' in mud, or very occasionally.
- it will be used in the deeps of the woods during winter where the earth is frozen, or later from early summer when the terrain is dry
- tree trunks will be pulled during summer from the trails where it is dry, using the cone and the snatch blocks
- yes, I agree, a winch would be very usefull, i drool over the 'Farmi' brand, but I can not afford it, to me a shredder is more important
- Since I will be retiring, time, within reason, is not an issue

Here is how I see it....
-Walk the patch, select the trees to cut
- fell a few... that is the easy part
- limb and cut in whatever length is decided, 4' 8' 12' what not
- pull the trunks aside in a pile, or at least in an easy way to get them to the trail
- cut some more tees, and repeat above steps
- chip or shred all the branches and make a nice pile of wood chips that will decay and enriches the 'tapis forestier'
- get the stems to the landing
- decide if It is worth calling a portable sawmill or make firewood
- done

Most of this work can be done during winter

The reason why it is so important for me to chip all the branches is that a pile of well dried branches become a very serious forest fire hazard!
I intend to keep a few piles, well isolated from other trees, in order to create a natural habitat for the hares, otherwise, every wood material will be turned into fire wood or chips to be spread over the surface to help with planting sapplings.

Back to the tractors, I am now feeling toward an HST tranny. The way I see it, the tractor will never get used as a logging skidder, will not sink waist deep in mud, will not go 'where no man has gone before'
I guess the whole thing becomes a moot point then. HST it's gonna be.... tonight! :d
I sincerely think it's a toss, and whatever I chose will be just fine, I guess.
But thank you all for the food for thought, and I will keep everybody informed of my decision later this spring or summer.

My plan is to sell my current house, with the money build the new one and buy the tractor and equipment. This will depend on how fast it goes selling the current house.
Anybody wants to buy an ugly bungalow, but with everything important replaced or repaired within the last 3 years in the Laval Region??? :d
New roof, windows, air conditioner, drain plumbing, furnace, ventilation, kitchen, floors....
:d I promise in the deal I will leave a case of Grolsch or Bor饌le, your choice, stout, white, blond, red or gold. Now, THAT is a deal!! :d
Luc

 

[GManBart]

It is slow but it keeps the 'tapis forestier' intact ( the forestal carpet... this is one of those occasions where you will have to beer... errrr to BEAR with me as I have no clue as to how the french expression translates! )
''Tapis forestier'' = the thin layer of black earth made of the accumulation and rotting of vegetal debris that forms the upper layer of the site, usually about 10 inches here.

Tapis Forestier is what we call "topsoil". R,

 

[rmorey]

- tree trunks will be pulled during summer from the trails where it is dry, using the cone and the snatch blocks

Your plan is reasonable, with one exception. Pull the logs in winter to keep the dirt out of the bark, or you wont find a sawyer that will be willing to cut them for you.

 

[Carl_NH]

Luc,

Congratulations on your first big decision - HST it will make the rest of the process a bit easier! It's a good choice, now to the specifics. From your post seems like you need a chipper/shredder too.

What budget you have in mind?

Based on what you have said, a grapple on the front with a chipper is on the back would be a great solution.

When you fell a tree the branches are the biggest issue to drag/move/chip. I know you say skid 100' but dragging branches 60-100' will get tiresome very fast (but you will be in great shape!) but if you have a chipper on the back of the tractor jsut back up and chip and move to the next area.

Last, what is the average diameter and height of the trees you are thinning? If I recall you have evergreens that are 50 years old or so?

 

[blueluke]

Carl! I hate you, !
Did not think of this one... duh!

Speaking of my body shape, being near sixty, the shape is a bit like a doughnut! Fat in the middle, and hollow at the brain level! :d. That's during the day, in the morning, the shape is more akin to a pretzel! :laughing:

Still, things are falling in place, HST it will be. 30-35hp is also decided, even if it means a bit less HP at the PTO. I want two aux valves at the back for maybe a wood splitter, or the hydraulics on the snow-blower. Backhoe is to expansive, I can rent one at the ''Joe loue-tout'' ( Joe rents-all) 15 min from the lots. He has backhoe mounted on a trailer with power-on hydraulics... These things works quite well, also I can hire a TLB for reasonable price over there. This is something I will need maybe once a year, so I can not justify about 7K$ asked for a new one, and used one are just about impossible to find!

Thanks to you guys, I can weed the 'wants' from the real 'needs'. Buying used is not out of the picture too. I do not know about your respective areas, but here, tractors lose quite a bit in value after only a couple of years, but used implements are almost the same price as new! And that is WHEN you can find them!

Luc

 

[blueluke]

Carl, the 'epinette' (fir) are about 6 to 10 inches at breast high level.
The cedars are victims of a disease that right now the name escapes me, but most are attacked by wood-pecker. This disease of the cedars is unfortunately quite widely spread over Quebec and any tree attacked by wood-peckers is doomed. This is saddening as those are easily 12-16' inches diameter at breast high level.
The paper birch are about 15'' wide and not reproducing, which means that they are at the end of their life cycle. These will make nice planks for the flooring in the new house!
The maple trees are terrible! Except for use as fire wood, they are pretty much useless.
My plan is to hire a forestry engineer late 2013 to evaluate the stand and make recommendations. I Intend to plant 'noble' hardwood species. Don't ask me which one ones as I only know their name in French!
(and the forum seems to have problems with the accents! )
Chene = oak
Erable = Maple
Frene = ash ( I think)
Merisier = Yellow birch ?

All these species are hardwoods, good for instrument making, furniture and cabinet making, flooring and building.
Of course, I will not see the result of my work, but this is what I want to leave as an inheritance to my grand children.
They deserve it don't you think?
I will teach them the rules of good stewardship, the respect for our mother the nature, why and how you can use earth's riches without stressing the rhythms and the yields.
This is where I become a poet and a dreamer! Remember, in my first post I said I was an artist!
Luc
PS: think about it, if all of us grandads and grannies bought a small piece of land, and planted some trees, and cared about deers, birds, racoons etc, what a better place planet earth would be! What a beautiful inheritance we can leave, money to leave is so insignificant!

 

[jenkinsph]

I agree with backing the chipper to the branches as it would cause less damage to the surface as well as being the easiest way to handle them. I would also agree that carrying the wood would be less damaging than dragging them oul.

What size tractor and pto hp would depend on the branches and chipper you need. A small 30 hp chipper would be slow to use.

 

[murphy1244]

Try Wallenstein for a chipper shredder, I have a BMX42

 

[blueluke]

Try Wallenstein for a chipper shredder, I have a BMX42

I am planning Wallenstein for the chipper and wood splitter.
Pronovost or Normand for the snowblower, both are good, the price will be the deciding factor here. :2cents:
FEL will be the one offered by the brand I will eventually chose ( MF, Kioti, Kubo...) I suppose they provides the best match for the machines.

Boxblade.... dunno!

Luc

 

[vtsnowedin]

Of course, I will not see the result of my work, but this is what I want to leave as an inheritance to my grand children.
They deserve it don't you think?
I will teach them the rules of good stewardship, the respect for our mother the nature, why and how you can use earth's riches without stressing the rhythms and the yields.
This is where I become a poet and a dreamer! Remember, in my first post I said I was an artist!
Luc
PS: think about it, if all of us grandads and grannies bought a small piece of land, and planted some trees, and cared about deers, birds, racoons etc, what a better place planet earth would be! What a beautiful inheritance we can leave, money to leave is so insignificant!

Well written, I could not agree more.! I hope to match your example.

 

[murphy1244]

We are not Land Owners, We are Caretakers of these lands. I have been stripping down grape vine and invasive plants to plant new hardwoods.

 

[Egon]

This is sounding more and more like a Case for a Team of Draft Horses!

 

[Carl_NH]

Carl, the 'epinette' (fir) are about 6 to 10 inches at breast high level.
This is saddening as those are easily 12-16' inches diameter at breast high level.
The paper birch are about 15'' wide and not reproducing, which means that they are at the end of their life cycle. These will make nice planks for the flooring in the new house!
The maple trees are terrible! Except for use as fire wood, they are pretty much useless.
Luc
PS: think about it, if all of us grandads and grannies bought a small piece of land, and planted some trees, and cared about deers, birds, racoons etc, what a better place planet earth would be! What a beautiful inheritance we can leave, money to leave is so insignificant!

Luc, admirable plan you have to reforest your land.

On the size, anything 10-12" at breast height should be good lumber or building. The fir are probably too small for lumber, but the cedar could make some good clapboards for siding for your house - even if it has a hole from the pecker you can toss these away. Cedar siding is $$$ here now, $44 bundle for A Clear grade.

And the maple yes, you must have swamp maple knotty and twisted - thats firewood? On the birch, yes that would make nice flooring - I would stay in the 4-6" width, tounge and groove or shiplap edge.

I think you are right in a 35-45HP machine, with a grapple as your logs are not small and dragging may do more damage than picking and carrying out once you have a path.

What you are undertaking is a LOT of hard labor, and will take time and if you have a sawyer or lumber mill nearby speak to them about preferred wood length and size etc..

Keep us posted.

Carl