heating cost comparison

[heehaw]

i hope i attached this right: it shows a comparison of heating cost for several different types of systems.
heehaw

 

[Ken_CT]

Must be the new math, but if I have 300% efficiency shouldn't I be getting 3 times more energy out of the system than I put in? That's even better than perpetual motion.

 

[EddieWalker]

My home is a year old and I put in an electric HVAC system with a heat pump. It was supposed to be more energy efficient. Cost to heat our 1,000 sq ft home was just over $100 per month in addition to our normal non heated or airconditioned months. The price of electricity has gone up, so I'm sure it would cost more.

We had two stand alone ceramic heaters from Sams Club that I used to heat my previous place. We pluged them in and used jus them to heat our home last year and our heating bill droped $100 per month. We rarely need two of them and usualy leave one running all night while we sleep. The home is two stories and the kids bedrooms are upstairs. They are nice and warm too from that one heater running all night at the base of the stairs.

Looking back, I'm anoyed that I paid extra for a heat pump that we don't even use.

Eddie

 

[George2615]

At 300% efficiency they should be paying you every time the heat is turned on.
There's also no mention of a fuel oil fired furnace. Oil has much higher heating value than propane or nat. gas.

 

[BobRip]

Must be the new math, but if I have 300% efficiency shouldn't I be getting 3 times more energy out of the system than I put in? That's even better than perpetual motion.

Let's see if I can explain this. With a heat pump you actually do get over 100% efficiency because you are pumping heat from the outside to the inside, so you are only paying to pump, not generate the heat. They don't usually call it efficieny, it's called COP (Coefficient of Performance).

One kilowatt of electricty will make 3412 BTUs. You can get 2 or 3 times this number of BTU per kilowatt with a heat pump. The problem is that this number depends on the outside temperature and at low temperatures you switch to strip heating which is 100% efficiency minus the duct loses. If your ducts are in unheated space this can be very significant and even in heated spaces the duct loss heat is going where you don't really need it. This was why the space heater are so good. You put them in the center of the room and they put the heat only where you are with a real 100% efficiency. The big negative of heat pumps is the life. They average about 12 years. I replaced mine at seven years and have spend far more on the initial cost and the annual mantenace than energy. I have an insulated concrete form house and so it is very well insulated. The heat pump was a new design and pulled off of the market by the supplier because of reliabilty. They gave me a new unit at seven yeras and I just paid for installation ($4000, not trivial) I think gas furnaces will last 30 years. A gas furnace with heat pump gives you the option of using the heat pump above 40 degress where it is effiicient and not stressed and the gas furnace below 40. You can change this temperature depending on how the prices of these energy sources change.

 

[cp1969]

My home is a year old and I put in an electric HVAC system with a heat pump. It was supposed to be more energy efficient. Cost to heat our 1,000 sq ft home was just over $100 per month in addition to our normal non heated or airconditioned months. The price of electricity has gone up, so I'm sure it would cost more.

We had two stand alone ceramic heaters from Sams Club that I used to heat my previous place. We pluged them in and used jus them to heat our home last year and our heating bill droped $100 per month. We rarely need two of them and usualy leave one running all night while we sleep. The home is two stories and the kids bedrooms are upstairs. They are nice and warm too from that one heater running all night at the base of the stairs.

Looking back, I'm anoyed that I paid extra for a heat pump that we don't even use.

Eddie

Did you notify your electric utility that you installed a heat pump? I am on my second house with an air to air heat pump. We moved from a ~1600 sq ft house into a~3400 sq ft house; both had heat pumps. The first house averaged around $115 per month year round to heat and cool. The second house averages (are you ready?) $115 per month. The second house is MUCH better insulated than the first and in fact it has two heat pump furnaces. Our electric utility cuts the rate way down in the winter. I know people that have $50-$70 electric bills just for lights and our entire bill is $115.

All in all, the heat pump is a cheap way to go. But having grown up in houses where there was a stove or floor furnace where you could warm up quick, a heat pump house is a meat locker in comparison.

 

[kenmac]

We are about to get a 5.29 % increase from the elect. co. With more increases in the near future

 

[CurlyDave]

... A gas furnace with heat pump gives you the option of using the heat pump above 40 degress where it is effiicient and not stressed and the gas furnace below 40. You can change this temperature depending on how the prices of these energy sources change.

We are using heat pumps for primary heating, but also have both propane and wood-burning stoves in our new house.

Thanks for the information. I am meeting with the heating contractor next week, and I will get him to set us up with a system like you describe. We will use the propane stoves for heat when the temp is really low, and the heat pump above 40 degrees.

 

[Highbeam]

My new to me house I am about to move into has the indiviual wall mounted space heaters not unlike the old cadet style but newer. Each room has it's own thermostat and its own resistance heater with blower. They are 110 volt and probably very similar to Eddie's ceramic heaters.

Then the PO ran his Lopi EPA 70+% efficient wood stove for primary heat.

I'm going to try living with the existing equipment. It will be very strange to not have forced air heating since all my life I have had duscts blowing heat into my homes. The fridge cycling should be the only noise we hear at night.

There are lots of "cost of heating" calculators out there. I used the Lopi site's calculator assuming modern equipment to add that....

wood heat: 200$ per cord, 1.46$ per 100k btu assumes a typical 70% efficient new stove.

Pellets: 200$ per ton, 1.78$ per 100k btu

Oil: 2$ per gallon, 1.92$ per 100k btu.

I really like wood heat and will always use it as a backup. Due to the lack of HVAC ducting I can add a primary heat source of my choice, perhaps hot water baseboard heaters with a ground source heat pump to heat water for both domestic and room heat.

For a full life cycle type cost I wonder if those cheap wall heaters are actually superior. I wll know in a year or two. We have no real need for AC here in WA, sure it would be nice for a couple of months but not worth the huge investment.

Excellent thread and timely too.

 

[Highbeam]

I really believe that electricity will always be a fine and dependable "fuel" with the most reasonable price hikes over time. Many domestic fuels are used to make electricity and (gasp) nuclear can always be brought back into the mainstream to keep prices relatively reasonable. I see our power production capacity increasing to feed hydrogen making factories as well, hydrogen for transportation fuel.

 

[heehaw]

the rumor is, in many parts of Arkansas, one of the utilities is going to have a 38% increase by the middle of january: i "assume" it is the electric utility, but i don't know that for sure.
heehaw

 

[BobRip]

We are using heat pumps for primary heating, but also have both propane and wood-burning stoves in our new house.

Thanks for the information. I am meeting with the heating contractor next week, and I will get him to set us up with a system like you describe. We will use the propane stoves for heat when the temp is really low, and the heat pump above 40 degrees.

Dave, it is certainly worth considering. My builder wanted me to use propane as backup, but for my climate (Virginia) and a super insulated house I felt that the back up heat would only come on a couple of times a year and that is basically what has happened. I believe your climate is colder and you probably do not have R50 walls and R55 attic insulation. Extending the life of the het pump is also an advantage for you.

 

[mjarrels]

Coal baby... Coal... Hottest buring fuel available or do like me... move to the Phillippines during the winter. Need heat? Open window!

mark

 

[cp1969]

R50 walls

How do you attain R50 in walls? I thought the highest was about R19.

 

[5030tinkerer]

ICF walls are rated in that vicinity.

 

[BobRip]

ICF walls are rated in that vicinity.

That's what they are. Insulated Concrete Form walls. Actaully it is R22, but the affect is equivalent to R50 due to thermal mass and low air leakage. Also very sound proof. My wife says we missed hurricane Isabel since it was night and we could not see it and we could not hear it.

 

[CurlyDave]

Dave, it is certainly worth considering. My builder wanted me to use propane as backup, but for my climate (Virginia) and a super insulated house I felt that the back up heat would only come on a couple of times a year and that is basically what has happened. I believe your climate is colder and you probably do not have R50 walls and R55 attic insulation. Extending the life of the het pump is also an advantage for you.

As much as I don't want to admit it, the propane stoves are as much an aesthetic thing as a practical one. DW and I both like the look of a fire, and when I compare wood stoves with propane, the propane ones actually look better (I can see flames all the time), and don't have the ash/dust issues that wood does. I heated with wood exclusively in CA for about 20 years, and am just tired of hauling ashes and the incredibly dusty house which a wood stove usually means.

We are going to only have one wood fireplace and three of the propane ones for that reason. If we ever go into a real economy mode, I have enough trees to sustain over 10 cords/year of wood production. The other reason is power outages. I have a standby generator which is big enough to run the air circulating blowers for the stoves and the furnace, but not the heat strips in them.

I like your super-insulated house. We have designed ours with enough windows that it is a waste of effort to put in too much insulation.

We have a 30-40 mile view, if I take advantage of it with windows, I pay for more heat.

I don't know about climate...we get 2-3" of very wet snow 2 or 3 times a year.

 

[BobRip]

As much as I don't want to admit it, the propane stoves are as much an aesthetic thing as a practical one. DW and I both like the look of a fire, and when I compare wood stoves with propane, the propane ones actually look better (I can see flames all the time), and don't have the ash/dust issues that wood does. I heated with wood exclusively in CA for about 20 years, and am just tired of hauling ashes and the incredibly dusty house which a wood stove usually means.

We are going to only have one wood fireplace and three of the propane ones for that reason. If we ever go into a real economy mode, I have enough trees to sustain over 10 cords/year of wood production. The other reason is power outages. I have a standby generator which is big enough to run the air circulating blowers for the stoves and the furnace, but not the heat strips in them.

I like your super-insulated house. We have designed ours with enough windows that it is a waste of effort to put in too much insulation.

We have a 30-40 mile view, if I take advantage of it with windows, I pay for more heat.

I don't know about climate...we get 2-3" of very wet snow 2 or 3 times a year.

We don't have a lot of window, and I can appreciate what you gain with the view. Sounds wonderful. Generators are not good for strip heating. You will really suck down some fuel. Better to burn the fuel directly as in the fireplace. The new ventless fireplaces are 100% efficient. Better than a furnace and the heat is where you are.

 

[NewToy]

We don't have a lot of window, and I can appreciate what you gain with the view. Sounds wonderful. Generators are not good for strip heating. You will really suck down some fuel. Better to burn the fuel directly as in the fireplace. The new ventless fireplaces are 100% efficient. Better than a furnace and the heat is where you are.

How do those ventless units work? It seems like you'd have a CO buildup with those things. Where do the by products of combustion go? The wife has been pestering me to install one for the visual effect. We have a geo-system with the ground loop for heat, it does a fine job.
John

 

[Highbeam]

I would really really not want a ventless fireplace installed in a living space. Moisture, smell, risk of dying, there's just very little benefit other than getting the last 20% efficiency from that natural gas. If you insist on installing a ventless fireplace, and if it is even legal in your state, then do yourself a favor and install a CO detector to alert you when the CO levels have gotten too high for safety. When you die from CO poisoning, you just fall asleep. I use a detector in my bedroom and it has never gone off despite my "ventless" natural gas range/oven.

It is very easy to vent a gas fireplace out the wall. That's how they do it here in the NW. A little box on the outside wall allows exhaust out and also provides combustion air input. The fire looks nice and turns on even without power with the flip of a switch. They are very efficient heaters and will easily cook you out.