heating cost comparison

[BobRip]

How do those ventless units work? It seems like you'd have a CO buildup with those things. Where do the by products of combustion go? The wife has been pestering me to install one for the visual effect. We have a geo-system with the ground loop for heat, it does a fine job.
John

Non-expert explanation follows. The theory is that the combustion process is so complete that the only combustion products are CO2 and water. No CO is created. On some units (maybe all) there is an oxygen depletion sensor that shuts the unit down if there is not enough makeup air getting into the room and oxygen gets low. Being a skeptic I have trouble believing in such perfection, on the other hand this system is 100% energy efficient and that's great. Also I assume that it is UL or otherwise listed so it's probably OK. They are very picky about their approvals. They have been on the market several years so they are again probably OK. Do a little web surfing and see if there are issues.

 

[NewToy]

Non-expert explanation follows. The theory is that the combustion process is so complete that the only combustion products are CO2 and water. No CO is created. On some units (maybe all) there is an oxygen depletion sensor that shuts the unit down if there is not enough makeup air getting into the room and oxygen gets low. Being a skeptic I have trouble believing in such perfection, on the other hand this system is 100% energy efficient and that's great. Also I assume that it is UL or otherwise listed so it's probably OK. They are very picky about their approvals. They have been on the market several years so they are again probably OK. Do a little web surfing and see if there are issues.

That sure sounds pretty slick if it works as advertised. I was meaning CO2 and not CO as I have seen those propane burners in greenhouses that are designed to bring the CO2 levels up and stimulate the plants. I was reading somewhere that a pound of propane burned makes a surprising amount of CO2 and water vapor. I can't remember the figures but it was astonishingly high. I have a "Desa" vent free fireplace in the box that I bought when I was building the house and never got around to installing it. I couldn't get over how authentic the logs look when in operation. I was able to check out the demo models before I bought and they have sure come a long way. The crazy thing even has a remote control for instant ambiance. I liked the idea of having at least a little backup heat as our system is all electric in the house. I realize the blower on the fireplace won't run but I think the thing will work w/o electric, enough to keep you from freezing to death in the event of an extended power failure.
Thanks, John

 

[BobRip]

I believe that everybody should have some kind of non-utility driven heat source, unless you live where cold is not a problem. Just follow their instructions carefully.

 

[gemini5362]

They gave me a new unit at seven yeras and I just paid for installation ($4000, not trivial)

I do not believe I would use the expression gave you a new unit. I just had a new york system installed last month. The installer was a closer friend of mine and has been since we were in high school together. Basically he just charged me his cost for the unit. I paid 2300 dollars for a new 4 ton heat pump system. That includes outside unit, new heat strips, new blower unit . everything. $4000 to install a replacement unit is extremely high from what little I know about it.

 

[gemini5362]

I have been useing the ventless LP heaters for years. Every model that I have looked at has a warning label that says it is not to be used in bedrooms.

I had a neighbor that had the best fireplace I have ever seen. They still make them but they are really geared towards the part of the country that uses oil for heat. The unit is actually a oil heater that is made to be used as a central heat unit. you mount the unit in just like you would a fireplace with the mantle and hearth etc. If you want to use it as a fireplace you turn the oil heater off open the glass doors in front and behind them are sealed metal doors. these doors just open with a handle. You can put your wood in there close the doors turn on your oil heater for a couple of minutes and instant fire. You open the metal doors and it looks just like a fireplace. The heat from the wood goes to the heat exchanger which is then blown through the house via your central heat ductwork. When you go to bed at night you close all the doors and turn on your oil heater. When the thermostat calls for heat the oil heater comes on and you are back on oil powered central heat. Like I said these units are still available but are a bit pricey.

 

[jpm]

I'm using a outdoor furnace for my heating in the new house i'm building.My net cost is going to be $0.00 in less than 1 year.The furnace cost $5000. the cost of burning/getting rid of cleared trees was $5/6000 so the wood goes into the furnace net cost $0.00 . Next year fuel cost $0.00 ect

 

[dmccarty]

Does it every stop smoking?

Our wood stove only smokes a bit during startup after its running good, only a few minutes, its hard to tell it burning.

Later,
Dan

 

[Highbeam]

That smoking is a big reason that these outdoor woodburning furnaces are illegal in many areas. Cold stinky smoke in response to an on/off type thermostat.

5000$ to boot? No thanks, sell me a woodstove instead.

For some reason though, there is a pretty dedicated following for these smoke shacks.

 

[BobRip]

They gave me a new unit at seven yeras and I just paid for installation ($4000, not trivial)

I do not believe I would use the expression gave you a new unit. I just had a new york system installed last month. The installer was a closer friend of mine and has been since we were in high school together. Basically he just charged me his cost for the unit. I paid 2300 dollars for a new 4 ton heat pump system. That includes outside unit, new heat strips, new blower unit . everything. $4000 to install a replacement unit is extremely high from what little I know about it.

Was yours a variable speed blower with 4 zones, two speed compressor, 4 motorized dampers. etc. Only three tons, but high tech. You're right though $4000 is far from free. For seven years of use, not too awful (well yes it was). Their first offer was $800 off of an $11000 system. All of the money did go to the installer. Was I happy? NO, but it did not kill me. I figure it cost the company about $3000. The first installer wanted the $11,000, the second one wanted $7000, of which $4000 was labor. Hence the $4000.

 

[heehaw]

i think geothermal is going to be the way to go someday: but i'm not sure its there yet. i know several people that have geothermal systems, and all but one of them, spend money every year on service calls to straighten out little problems: the one that hasn't done that, mainly heats with an Ashley wood stove: his geothermal system is an open loop type: he pumps out of a well and puts the water on his garden in the summer and i'm not sure where he puts it in the winter, when he uses the system for heating. anyway, cost for service calls and replacing systems in say 10 years instead of 20(heat pump vs gas) sure eats up any savings in operation.
heehaw

 

[Alan L.]

Let's see if I can explain this. With a heat pump you actually do get over 100% efficiency because you are pumping heat from the outside to the inside, so you are only paying to pump, not generate the heat. They don't usually call it efficieny, it's called COP (Coefficient of Performance).

One kilowatt of electricty will make 3412 BTUs. You can get 2 or 3 times this number of BTU per kilowatt with a heat pump. The problem is that this number depends on the outside temperature and at low temperatures you switch to strip heating which is 100% efficiency minus the duct loses. If your ducts are in unheated space this can be very significant and even in heated spaces the duct loss heat is going where you don't really need it. This was why the space heater are so good. You put them in the center of the room and they put the heat only where you are with a real 100% efficiency. The big negative of heat pumps is the life. They average about 12 years. I replaced mine at seven years and have spend far more on the initial cost and the annual mantenace than energy. I have an insulated concrete form house and so it is very well insulated. The heat pump was a new design and pulled off of the market by the supplier because of reliabilty. They gave me a new unit at seven yeras and I just paid for installation ($4000, not trivial) I think gas furnaces will last 30 years. A gas furnace with heat pump gives you the option of using the heat pump above 40 degress where it is effiicient and not stressed and the gas furnace below 40. You can change this temperature depending on how the prices of these energy sources change.

We have a heat pump but I can't imagine running any kind of heat if the temp is above 40 outside. We ran our window unit A/C last night set to cycle to maintain a temp of 60 in our bedroom. The low was about 43 or so, but the a/c ran quite a bit.

The problem with our building is that its hard to get any air ventilation in the house. You can open the windows and it still won't cool down. The only time we run heat is in the morning in the bathroom (even when its in the 20s outside) or if the temp stays windy and cold for 2 or 3 days in a row. Then, we need heat.

Without running heat, and temp of about 20 outside, it never gets below 59 degrees in the bedroom at night by morning. That would be too cool for sitting around the house, but under the covers its great.

 

[BobRip]

We have a heat pump but I can't imagine running any kind of heat if the temp is above 40 outside. We ran our window unit A/C last night set to cycle to maintain a temp of 60 in our bedroom. The low was about 43 or so, but the a/c ran quite a bit.

The problem with our building is that its hard to get any air ventilation in the house. You can open the windows and it still won't cool down. The only time we run heat is in the morning in the bathroom (even when its in the 20s outside) or if the temp stays windy and cold for 2 or 3 days in a row. Then, we need heat.

Without running heat, and temp of about 20 outside, it never gets below 59 degrees in the bedroom at night by morning. That would be too cool for sitting around the house, but under the covers its great.

I am speaking a little out of my area here, but here I go. Generally a heat pump is sized to have adequate heating capacity to heat a house down to around 30 degrees, this of course varies given the many variables involved. Given this situation propane or gas is a good choice if your climate gets below 30 for many days a year. It's not that the heat pump does not work much colder, as with my house it will provide heat down to below 20 and then the emergency heat is need if it stays there long enough. For your place you don't need any heat until it gets real cold. Because you are so well insulated, even at say 20 degrees you heat pump will heat your house and not have to run full time. For this situation where the emergency heat is only needed very rarely, then electric strip heating is your best choice. This is an over simplification as I don't know your climate or house construction. I have electric as the backup for the same reason. The emergency heat is only needed for a few hours a year typically. Please consult a profession who knows your climate and house construction for selecting a unit. This is not my profession. What is your house construction. Sounds like Adobe with very thick walls.