Hauling it...How much truck?

[jgh]

12/1

I'm a little disappointed that no one chimed in on my post about excavators, but I guess most of you just don't deal with them.

Let me try one more related theme. How big a truck (dump size) do I need to haul such a creature?

The combined trailer & load would be about 25,000#. It is easy to find GVWR's for trucks, but the GCWR, which speaks to the COMBINED wt a truck n trailer can handle is more elusive.

Some people say I need a tandem to pull so much wt. But others say a 33,000 GVWR single axle truck (such as the state hyway type snow clearing vehicles often auctioned, International S1900, et al) will do just fine. I attached a picture of one of those for reference.

And yes, I am getting a CDL.

Can anyone lend some guidance that I can get my teeth into?

Thanks!

 

[Bird]

jgh, I understand the question, and maybe someone on here has an answer, but in my opinion, there are too many variables involved. Which engine, transmission, axle ratio, etc. do you intend to use? How heavy is the truck going to be loaded, etc. Generally speaking, to pull a load that heavy, I'd say you probably need to be considering the tandem axle truck.

Bird

 

[jgh]

12/1

Hi, Bird, wish I was in Tx today! Coooooollllldddd here!

Thanks as always for taking time to comment.

I realize the drivetrain has to be adequate. Interestingly enough I am getting pretty uniform advice that almost any 5/2 transmission mated with a 175-200 HP diesel engine like a DT366 or 466 International, 3208 Cat, or almost any Mack drivetrain of any type /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, will do it.

I have looked at some trucks with as low as 5.88 rears, which is real dragster gearing for sure. And Macks seem to have fewer gears, what with the some 676 cu in/1425 ft-lbs of torque /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif on one I am looking at.

My main concern is safety--can I stop such a combo with a loaded or unloaded single axle dumper or is this a job for a tandem? Your vote then, is for the tandem, or is your concern whether a single could even pull it?

How about an automatic--seems like a strange beast for a heavy truck, but a lot of those DOT trucks have 'em. Warning from some is that repairing them is big bucks although failures are rare.

Oh, here is a picture of one I plan to drive tomorrow. Big truck fer sure, but the Macks seem to hold their value so I'm willing to go a little more.

Jim

 

[Thomas]

Jim,
What does your local heavy equipment operator's use to haul with.

I'm not sure I would want to try and hold back a trailer with a excavator to many time going down a steep grade plus with cures only with a single axle,also the brakes might get a tad warm.

I notice around here when someone hauling {10 wheelers} a excavator or a dozer,they also haul a load of stones..dirt etc..doing two things at once..will you?

Have you check out the International,for they also sem to be a good unit.

Take care and happy shopping.


Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[Bird]

Jim, first off, let me admit that I'm out of my league on this topic. There was a time, many years ago, when my Dad drove the big rigs, and my younger brother used to own both a Kenworth tandem rear axle and a Peterbilt triple rear axle tractor, but I've had little to no personal experience with the big rigs. But I would be concerned with stopping and controlling ability with a single rear axle and that much weight on a trailer (of course, I assume you'd have good brakes on the trailer, so maybe that's not as serious a concern as I'm inclined to think). I'd bet you know a lot more about the topic than I. As far as the automatic transmissions, it's my understanding that the only reason more trucks are not using them is fuel mileage. The first dump truck I ever drove (in 1956) was a '51 GMC with a Hydramatic transmission! I was startled when I got in it, because I didn't even know anyone had put an automatic transmission in a truck that early. But the little experience I've had with modern Allison automatics has led me to think that's what I'd want (some models, that is, because there are some I don't care for, but don't remember all the model numbers). Right now my brother has a GMC Topkick with the 200 hp Cat engine and an Allison that I don't like. No matter what gear it's in, when you let off the accelerator pedal, the engine drops to a dead idle and the truck feels like it's freewheeling (like the old car manual overdrive transmissions). He's talking about trading up to a Freightliner, 315 hp Cummins, air brakes (which I love), and a 6 speed Allison that only feels like freewheeling in the top two gears. At any rate, that picture looks like a nice Mack, and good luck with your shopping.

Bird

 

[gordon]

Not much to sink you teeth into but here is my two cents.

Becareful of the state auctioned trucks they are either one extreme or the other. Just remember what they spend their life doing--pushin show and spreadinSALT both very hard on any truck. I've been to some state auctions and some great deals can be had. Just be careful of what is actually under the truck and not the looks. Another thing is that these trucks also spend alot of time idle. That can be harder on a truck than running it on a regular basis.

Good luck in your quest.
Gordon

 

[jgh]

12/1

Hi, Thomas,

Guys around here that I have seen mostly use small tractors to pull 40-50T trailers since they haul bigger machines than I will. I don't know of anyone with the wt I am forcasting.

One scary thing I have noted: a lot of people stretch the capacity of light trucks, close to the breaking point. Most 3/4T trucks are maxed out at 8-9000# (some go a little farther) towed wt. And I have seen backhoes (14-15000 with trailer) behind them! Talk about Tim Taylor weight with an Al truck...

I have checked out the Internationals, and they do seem to be good work trucks. The DOT truck I pictured in my other post is an S1900, I believe. My heavy truck-smarter brother tells me the DT466 is the best medium duty diesel engine around. Roland claims ignorance on towing capability, though.

Good consideration about what else I would be carrying. If necessary I would just have to limit the payload to avoid exceeding the GVWR/GCWR.

J

 

[jgh]

12/1

Ah, Gordon, the truth is out. We do use salt on our roads down here /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif!

See the attached pic on the original S1900 I looked at, alledgedly from Baltimore DOT. What level of damage would you say that is?

Good point about idling. Most of the DOT trucks have relatively few miles for their ages. But with a diesel, isn't idling less harmful than on a gas engine? Not good, I'm sure, but how harmful?

One guy I spoke to recently reminded me that gas engine tolerate not being run for long periods than to diesels. True? Many of us treat our tractors that way /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.

J

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jgh on 12/1/00 09:58 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[jgh]

12/1

{Bird, is there any coincidence between your nickname and your love of AIR brakes? couldn't resist /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif}

For the question here...why do you love air brakes? One thing I noted when studying for my CDL learners was about air /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif brake lag. At 55mph, you lose 32 feet to it on average.

Devils Advocate question and invitation to get down n technical: I know they're better, but why?

You can use your lifeline to phone-a-Wen.

/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

J

 

[Bird]

Jim, as to your first question about a nickname; I don't have one (as far as I know). I just use my real name.

And as to the air brakes, I don't have hardly any technical knowledge; just liked the ones I've driven. And as to air brake lag, it sorta makes sense to me, but not enough so for me to understand it. I had to make one panic stop (well, actually just barely short of locking up and skidding; heavy traffic moving about 55 when the third car ahead of me lost control and caused 3 to pile up) on I-40 in Knoxville, TN, once in a diesel pusher motorhome with air brakes and if there was any lag there, it wasn't something I could "feel." And I don't know why air brakes are any better either, except I just like the feel of the pedal and braking better.

Bird

 

[jimmoore]

GJH, I have driven an international school bus for the last 3 years. It has a DT466 "diesel turbocharged" with an Allison AT500 transmission. It will make that 66 passenger bus "haul a$$. It's easy starting on cold mornings also. We get real good fuel milage out of them. Of course, they are not pulling the kind of load that you are talking about. 4th gear has an overdrive and as bird said they "freewheel" when you let off the throttle. We drive in 2nd or 3rd in town with stop & go driveing, that way the engine will help slow you down. I love the automatic tranny. jim

 

[jgh]

12/2

[Sorry about the nickname kidding, Bird. I'll hafta stop winging it...]

Thanks, Bird, please tell me a couple of things:

What is a "pusher" motorhome?

Did the exciting stop (got my attention!) occur with ABS in the mix? I understand that is fairly new to the airbrake world, so I assume not, esp from your description.

Glad you made it thru that, wouldn't be the same list without you! And on that I am not kidding /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.

Jim

 

[jgh]

12/2

Jim, that sounds like Del's trouble with his hst tractor. Is the so-called Jake brake common on large diesel vehicles--basically a special engine braking setup as I understand it. The CDL study materials make it sound very commonplace.

Thanks for the review of the DT466. One thing I have noticed is that it is hard to tell just what engine a truck has. Oh, you can tell the brand, but not the config sometimes. Caterpillar seems best since they stamp the engine model # where you can see it, but then you discover that each one has a W--I--D--E range of HP ratings depending on a myriad of factors like turbocharging, camshaft, injector pump, the list is endless!

Got to go to bed. Wife is in CA for conference (Hi, Harv et al) and I am going truck shopping on Saturday. Thanks to everyone for helping me so far!

J

 

[Bird]

Jim, I've been kidded about my name all my life, so that sure doesn't bother me; in fact, I guess I kind of get a kick out of it. One thing's for sure; with my name and my big mouth, people remember me.

A "pusher" motorhome is one with the engine in the rear, like most of the big busses.

And nope, no ABS on it. I haven't driven one with air brakes and ABS yet. On that trip through Knoxville, I was just delivering a brand new motorhome from a dealership in Texas to a customer in Virginia, and towing my little Isuzu pickup, so I sure would have hated to wreck that thing.

Bird

 

[Bird]

Aaah, Jim, this modern equipment is great, isn't it? The one year I drove a school bus was an 8 year old (1952) International, gasoline engine, 5-speed, no power steering, no air-conditioning, and almost no heater./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif And I thought I had really moved up at mid-year when I got the '57 Internatinal. In those days they called it a 72 passenger bus. Of course, that was figuring 3 kids to a seat.

Bird

 

[stevepio]

That first photo reminded me of one of my favorite jokes: "What's yellow and sleeps six?"

DOT Truck of course!

 

[jgh]

12/4

Rubbing salt in those [DOT] wounds, huh /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif?

Are you saying a lot of sleep ac-crews there?

J

 

[RobertN]

One thought about the Automatic... Most newer Fire Engines have them. Some engines, aerials, and pumpers are downright heavy! Consider too, that they get run HARD when going code three to a emergency.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[Bird]

RobertN, I'm old enough to remember when the equipment services folks didn't want any automatic transmission vehicles because they feared maintenance problems. The police department didn't get their first automatic transmission cars until 1969. And later, they discovered that garbage trucks with automatic transmissons and hydraulic packers were cheaper to maintain than manual transmissions with PTO powered packers. And the same thing with wreckers. Things DO change, don't they?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird

 

[Thomas]

Bird,
Things do change thats for sure.
Looks at us now with our video equipment..mircowaves..tractors etc..also we are chatting on computers who would have thought 20 years ago. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
The future one can only guess.

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif