Gotta new barn, getting ready to learn some welding, which welder should I pop for?!?

[PhysAssist]

Hi All,

Since joining TBN, and seeing all the awesome DIY projects, especially the implements, I have wanted to start learning to weld.

My B-I-L used to be a production welder for race cars and racing go-carts before he changed jobs to allow his asthma to recover, but has offered to help me to learn and has a Lincoln AC/DC Stick welder in his garage, that he hasn't touched in 20 years.

I think that learning to stick weld will be the most helpful skill for me because fabricating and repairing implements (like a land plane grader) is about all I plan to do with it, and I have no need to weld Al or SS, so MIG probably isn't going to help me that much.

I recently found a Westinghouse model 600X gennie/welder for sale.

It is otherwise labelled AC Power, DC Welder, with a 2 cylinder Onan engine and it outputs 200 Amps for welding and 3500 Watts as a generator. No documentation is available on it, and my web searches have yielded a pitifully small amount of info about Westinghouse welders in general, and nothing about this one specifically.

A friendly colleague with extensive welding experience has helped me to try to think rationally about whether this dino-welder is going to be a good one to learn to stick weld on.

There are still some issues keeping me from popping on it, because for one thing, it is a tap style welder, so the available amp increments have some pretty stiff jumps upward, but there also appears to be a rheostatic fine tuner, but with no operatoring manual and obviously no guarantees about its life from here on.

Finally, the gennie has only 110 Volt output, where 220 Volts would be ideal to run my well pump, so it isn't the best back up gennie for me either. The seller listed it at $500, but has said that he would take $400 cash, and it is within about 1.5 hours from me.

The seller also states that he did weld with it until last fall, when he bought a MIG machine, but has used it for back up power since then. He also says that he has good 50' leads on the plugs for it.

My colleague also suggested that I might do better to think about a new welder, and pointed out that either the Everlast Power Arc 200 or the Longevity Stickweld 250 could possible be bought new for less than the $375-400 I would be paying for the Westinghouse dino-welder, and would have features and warranties that would not be there with the older machine. Apparently, there are new technologies and adjustments like "hot start", "adjustable arc", and varying degrees of ability to handle 6010 and 7018 rods, although I'm not sure what any of that means to me in my current stage of understanding.

What advice, thoughts, opinions, etc., do you, my TBN Fellows have to share with me. I would PREFER to avoid the perennial "imported from China crud" debate that often occurs on these threads, if you all wouldn't mind? Anything else about welding is fair game!

Thanks in advance,
Thomas

 

[joshuabardwell]

I have heard wise people say, and it makes sense to me: if you're not going to be a rig welder, or otherwise welding in the field, better to get a plugs-in welder over an engine drive. An engine drive is going to be expensive as heck to run, with the cost of gas, and it's going to be screaming in your ear the whole time. All in all, not a pleasant experience. You can run a plug-in welder all day for a few dollars. Try that with an engine-drive.

One thing that the engine drives do give you is, they almost, if not always have 100% duty cycle. For a hobbyist, that hardly matters, though. You can easily get an inverter welder for $400 that will have 100% duty cycle at the kind of output levels you'll typically be using.

When pricing an engine drive welder/generator, one way to think about it is to ask, "would I pay this much for a generator alone"? Obviously, the welder is worth something too, but if the thing is worth the price of admission for the genny alone, that can help make the decision a little easier to make. Around here, used generators go for a little less than $100 per kW, so $400 for a used welder/generator with 3500 watts output seems fair. You're paying maybe $250 for the generator, and another $150 for the welder. That's assuming it's mechanically sound and all.

Don't let the fixed taps and variable fine adjustment throw you off. That's how some of the best engine-drive welders in the world work, including the venerable SA-200. I still wouldn't recommend an engine drive, though.

 

[deereman75]

If you decide to buy a plug in welder (I would.....) I would have to say to go with the longevity over the everlast.
The stickweld 250 is the nicest 7018 and 7024 burner I have ever ran! The adjustable arc force and hot start really put it a class above.


Now, on that engine drive. Being a Westinghouse, it would not be a total piece of crap. It just depends on how well it works.
It sounds about comparable to the airco wasp, which seem to go for $400-$600 around here.
I would say $400 is a good price, but I wouldn't recommend that as a first and only welder.
Seeing as I have an inverter already, I would buy it at that price....... LOL

 

[LD1]

If the generator isnt really important to you, I'd pass. Its just another small engine to maintain, and one that for a hobbiest, may rarely get used. Nothing like being in the middle of doing something, breakdown, and need a quick weld. Well, you have to check the oil, check the gas, then start it up which may or may now happen quickly if it has sat awhile.

My advise, look over c-list. You can find lincoln tombstones all day for $75-$200 in AC only. And sometimes see the AC/DC ones for $300. Either would do just fine for a newbie welder. But personally I would look for one that has DC as well. It is almost impossible to run 7018 (even the "ac" version) on a AC only machine. Well, at least ours anyway.

 

[muddstopper]

If you decide to buy a plug in welder (I would.....) I would have to say to go with the longevity over the everlast.

Why? What makes a Longevity better than the Everlast? Do you own or have you used a Everlast? I really want to know what makes one brand better than the other. I have never seen or used either brand.

 

[Shield Arc]

I've run both. But not really a fair comparison. My Everlast Power Arc 200 doesn't have adjustable hot start, or adjustable arc force like the Longevity Stickweld 250 I ran. In my opinion the PA-200 has a better arc for running 6010, but the Stickweld 250 ran 7018 better. The Stickweld 250 was very impressive with 7018, I could get the slag to curl up on over head welds. If I would have waited until the PA-300 came out I would have bought it. Because it has adjustable hot start, and arc force. The hot start really doesn't mean that much to me, I've started a few rods before. But the adjustable arc force just amazes me! I use it more like a inductance control than anything else. I'm pretty good at controlling the puddle with the arc length, but the adjustable arc force will shorten the learning curve for someone just starting to learn how to weld.

 

[gwdixon]

An old generator/welder with little information has less than ideal appeal. Old engines will eventually need repair. With an apparent lack of available parts and manuals it would seem like a wise move to pass on the deal.

Shield Arc can clue you in to the travails of rebuilding old engine driven welders. He has done one or two (or maybe a dozen ).

I went with a separate welder and generator. The generator is a Honda 13KW that runs my 220A pump and A/C along with other household stuff like refrigerators and computers when there is an outage. Even the expensive new Miller generator/welders won't "only" put out 11KW.

New, large, and quality, generators are very expensive. I found mine on eBay for $2000 and it was close enough to pick up. Sometimes you have to be patient and search Craigslist and eBay until the ideal deal shows up.

The welder is an Everlast PA 200 which does everything I need it to around the farm. It is light, portable, runs off the generator or a 220A plug.

Like Shield Arc, I would have probably gone with the PA300 had it been available. We will see what the next round of upgrades brings and then make a choice. But anything more than the PA200 would be for "want" purposes rather than "need".

 

[deereman75]

Why? What makes a Longevity better than the Everlast? Do you own or have you used a Everlast? I really want to know what makes one brand better than the other. I have never seen or used either brand.

I was saying between the pa200, and the stick 250. The rest of the post you quoted said longevity because of the adjustable arc force, and hot start.

If it was pa300 vs stickweld 250, I couldn't say anything.

Nothing against everlast, but the extra adjustments are (for me) by far the deciding point.

 

[Arc weld]

You didn't give enough information. What model is the Lincoln AC/DC? your BIL has? If it's an Idealarc 250, it's an awesome welder and you don't need anything else. Westinghouse has made some great welders(40 years ago) but finding any parts would be almost impossible.

 

[cowski]

i would not get the old engine drive welder.i had one similar ,that was old when i bought it 30 years ago.the motor needed rebuilding some of the taps burned out and the carb needed work so i finally got rid of it last year. it was tap adjustable with a fine adjust.it did weld great.the ac power was not real good.it paid for itself many times over.but you could not find parts any more.so i got a little everlast 140 that i can plug in my 5500 watt generator for portable repairs. it will burn 1/8 7018.i would recommend a miller thunderbolt ac/dc for a beginning welder.is the lincoln of your neighbors a idealarc 250 ,i have used the older round top model.i would consider it a excellent welder.but if it is a small one with tapped setting i like the thunderbolt better.the local welding school starts everyone off on thunderbolts then moves them up to bigger machines.the local factory uses miller xmts they weld great but they are expensive.

 

[PhysAssist]

You didn't give enough information. What model is the Lincoln AC/DC? your BIL has? If it's an Idealarc 250, it's an awesome welder and you don't need anything else. Westinghouse has made some great welders(40 years ago) but finding any parts would be almost impossible.

Hi all,

I forgot to say that while initially my B-I-L was talking about giving me his welder, he has since decided that he is going to start using it, and while he will be happy to teach me on it, and let me use it at his house, I will only have limited access to it, which is why I am looking it the first place. If he was still willing to part with it, regardless of what model it is (which I'm not sure of) I wouldn't be looking for another one (yet).

Thanks to all of you for the opinions and comments, I really appreciate it from all of you!

I had considered most of the same reservations about buying the Westinghouse, including the fact of having to run the gennie to weld, its age and ? likelihood of breakdown of one of the components, the low AC power output, another gas engine to maintain, and possible difficulty in finding parts, so I appreciate the feedback confirming my thought process about that.

As regards the recommendations toward buying a used welder, I have read the same suggestions on other posts here and on the welding webs I have been lurking on, and I will continue to watch CL and EBay for a used DC or AC/DC welder, whether Lincoln or other mfg.

Unfortunately, the prices I have been seeing within the couple of hundred miles I wouldn't mind driving were significantly higher than the estimates given here, hence my thoughts about getting a new one.

Plus, then I for sure wouldn't be buying someone else's problems. I have had a very wide range of luck buying used mechanical/electrical things, a lot of it bad, and the last thing I want it is a (to me) complicated high-powered machine to have to troubleshoot and fix.

I was also hoping that the reps for Everlast and Longevity might have something to add that could sway my thoughts one way or another.

My fondest hope would be to be able to ask each of them to tell us what flaws exist in their own brand, and what advantages their rival's machine possesses, because I usually find that really becomes enlightening.

Thanks again,
Thomas

PS: I just heard from my ortho that my new knee is getting implanted on 9/11/13!

 

[joshuabardwell]

I was also hoping that the reps for Everlast and Longevity might have something to add that could sway my thoughts one way or another.

Mark from Everlast is usually pretty active on TBN, but if you for-sure want to get a rep's attention post on the sponsored sub-forums here or PM the rep with any questions. Mark's username is "Mark @ Everlast". I'm not sure which Longevity rep is active on TBN.

 

[medic0648]

Simon is when he is in the US, and most of the sales team will get on at times. if you post a direct question to them on their section they're usually pretty quick to answer durring business hours.

 

[PhysAssist]

Thanks again for the advice,
Thomas

 

[newbury]

Unfortunately, the prices I have been seeing within the couple of hundred miles I wouldn't mind driving were significantly higher than the estimates given here, hence my thoughts about getting a new one.

With the cost of the Everlast 300 at around $500, a Lincoln about $350, and gas about $3.50/gallon it would have to be a great bargain to be worth driving a "couple of hundred miles".

Sometimes it's just best to "bite the bullet" and order the darn thing and be done with it

 

[PhysAssist]

Good point, I may have to, meanwhile, back to CL and EBay once more...
Thomas

 

[muddstopper]

Why? What makes a Longevity better than the Everlast? Do you own or have you used a Everlast? I really want to know what makes one brand better than the other. I have never seen or used either brand.

I asked this question because I am thinking about upsizing my current Mig. Its a Miller 175. For most of the welding I do, it is more than adequate, and I have the idealarch and my lincoln ac/dc tombstone for the heavy stuff. I just like using the mig and find the miller 175 just a little small at times. I am considering a 250 size mig and might consider something besides blue or red.

 

[Shield Arc]

I just like using the mig and find the miller 175 just a little small at times. I am considering a 250 size mig and might consider something besides blue or red.

Have you given any thought to using flux core wire? .045" dual shield with 100% CO2 with give you some more bang. Self shielded flux core can really give you some bang per amp.

 

[aczlan]

I was also hoping that the reps for Everlast and Longevity might have something to add that could sway my thoughts one way or another.
My fondest hope would be to be able to ask each of them to tell us what flaws exist in their own brand, and what advantages their rival's machine possesses, because I usually find that really becomes enlightening.

PM or email them. I had a similar discussion with Mark @ Everlast via PM and various folks at Longevity vie email earlier this year. Still haven't gotten around to buying one yet, but I will be going with Everlast over Longevity.

Aaron Z

 

[muddstopper]

I have never tried flux core, Never. I dont change wire until I run out. I mostly run .035 and use 75/25 argon mix. I recently ran out of 75/25gas and had to hook up the 100%argon bottle just to finish a job. Right off the bat I noticed a difference in the way it welded. It seemed the 100%argon makes for better penetration and runs a hotter weld.