Snow Going through second stage bolts

   / Going through second stage bolts
  • Thread Starter
#21  

Helpful thread, thank you. The two things I got out of it were torque to 9ft-lbs and MB Tractor and Equipment | The Best Tractors and Equipment on Earth (R)

70060-01074 $.85
70060-01337 $1.95

Where I will order some additional spares. I am suspecting that the 'traction sand' may be the problem for me. I am guessing that it is getting in the edge of the fan blades and binding things up.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Helpful thread, thank you. The two things I got out of it were torque to 9ft-lbs and MB Tractor and Equipment | The Best Tractors and Equipment on Earth (R)

70060-01074 $.85
70060-01337 $1.95

Where I will order some additional spares. I am suspecting that the 'traction sand' may be the problem for me. I am guessing that it is getting in the edge of the fan blades and binding things up.


Not much cost savings, the ground shipping costs as much as my order, so about the same price as the dealer.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Still shearing bolts. I am thinking that the size of the sand/gravel they use on the roads is close to the gap between the impeller and the housing (maybe 3/16"?). They pour a lot of this course sand on the main road, so I am trying to back blade this off and not get it in the blower, but still averaging a shear every other time plowing, even in light dry snow. Not sure where to go from here, but it really adds to the plow time to stop and put in a new bolt.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #24  
On my first plow of the year I went through a couple of second stage bolts on my Kubota snowblower. I thought it was from the wet snow, but today we had 6 inches of dry snow, and I went through 3 more. I did not see that I was hitting anything, it seemed like if I even loaded it up much they broke. Any suggestions on how to deal with this, short of putting a non-shear bolt in? Can this be a symptom of something else wrong with the blower? Is it better to torque the shear bolts really tight, or just snug for maximum torque before breaking? Any help is appreciated.

I've never seen this written anywhere but I believe that the fan running at wide open throttle (like the manual recommends) creates a flywheel effect allowing it to blow through small rocks, etc without shearing bolts. If you aren't running WOT, try it like sandyc suggests. If you are running WOT then I would be looking at bent shafts, misaligned gears, or chain problems.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #25  
Or at least run it at the correct pto speed. What speed is the OP running at?
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #26  
jrogers
Could you please post a couple of pictures of the pto shaft between the tractor and the blower including where the shear bolt that keeps failing is located.

Something basic is wrong and being overlooked.

Is the failing shear bolt part #19 in this exploded pa.rts illustration?
2lxv68z.jpg


I am wondering if the pto shaft is not telescoping properly when the blower is raised and lowered.
The hydraulic cylinder would easily side the two parts of the pto assembly and shear the bolt like a bolt cutter.

Has this possibility been investigated. Pto shafts often need to be cut a bit shorter so they are not fully compressed at any point in the tractor operation.


Dave M7040
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #27  
One other thought, make sure the front impellers are opposite on the shaft. If they aren't 180 degrees from each other they may be jamming too much snow in the impeller.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #28  
I re-read this whole thread and have to agree with DaveM7040 -- Something basic is wrong and being overlooked. You indicated that:
1) This happens all the time,nearly every time you blow snow.
2) It also happens in dry fluffy as well as heavy wet, yet it breaks when things are getting heavily loaded with snow.
3) The rotor spins freely when the shear pin is out.
I just can't see sand or gravel being any different for you than many other folks. Agree with those saying to use wide-open engine speed. But most or all of the things mentioned are marginal and not going to cause the constant failure rate you are seeing. SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT HERE. A couple more questions: Any chance the unit has a lot of hours on it and the shear has occurred so many times that the bolt hole is worn out to larger size ? If so, drill it out and go to a slightly larger shear bolt. Maybe some of the rotor bearings are worn out and bind under load ? Have any of the parts/shafts/sleeves been replaced in the life of the unit ? Maybe something is not quite right sized ? I still say -- get to the bottom of the cause first. But if all else fails, and it keeps shearing that often, it becomes better use of your time to just buy a slip clutch and be done with it.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #29  
If it indeed is the gravel that is causing the fan bolts to shear, try closing up the fan/fan housing gap by installing some type of flap on the end of each impeller. There are plenty of threads of people doing this to increase snow blowing distance, but the other side effect is that small rocks are swept up and blown, rather than jamming the fan. I have done this on a 2750D and it helps. Lots of gravel gets blown off my driveway each snowfall, but shear pin breakage has dropped to just once in a while.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #30  
I'm with JWR. Something basic is wrong. Maybe you are tightening the shear bolts that puts extra stress on them from the get go. Something binding, or PTO engagement at high RPM or engagement too snappy. All the blowers I have ever used could care less if they are blowing snow or gravel... I've had trouble with a couple big 6-8" rocks... but gravel just robs HP, wears down the inside of the fan cavity, and makes lots of noise...
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #31  
How about the PTO shaft. The universals have to be phased correctly. Out of phase and weird things can happen, if not shrapnel based with big chunks flying every which way.... ??
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #33  
If you "phase" your U-joints as the article describes you'll be one of 3 people in North America doing it. And you'll never find the other two. If using normal tri-oval shaped PTO shafts The entire situation or "phasing" is frozen in the relationships of the ends of the drive link. Some of the other type shafts (a variety of splines, etc) may "fix" the relationship and may not, depending on whether the splines have a Key or doublewide spline. My guess is that you can survey 100 drive line shops and find maybe 1 or 2 that pay any attention to it at all when welding in replacement shafts. Now granted, the motorcycle people probably fine tune all sorts of things. By the way the people who wrote that article failed to know what a CV joint is.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #34  
If you "phase" your U-joints as the article describes you'll be one of 3 people in North America doing it. And you'll never find the other two. If using normal tri-oval shaped PTO shafts The entire situation or "phasing" is frozen in the relationships of the ends of the drive link. Some of the other type shafts (a variety of splines, etc) may "fix" the relationship and may not, depending on whether the splines have a Key or on it. doublewide spline. My guess is that you can survey 100 drive line shops and find maybe 1 or 2 that pay any attention to it at all when welding in replacement shafts. Now granted, the motorcycle people probably fine tune all sorts of things. By the way the people who wrote that article failed to know what a CV joint is.

Re phasing:
Many years ago I was new to tractors. Bought a Nuffield 465 while they were still being made which really dates me.
Next acquisition was a McKee 720 snow blower which was brand new and came with a pto shaft with metal shield on it.

The pto shaft was too long and was bottoming out.

The two halves of the pto shaft were square with one sliding inside the other.
What I failed to realize at the time was that the rounded bump at the end on one side on the male shaft was important and I cut the two halves of the shaft thereby eliminating the bump. The bump was like a dowel whose end was ground into a dome.

Put everything back together started the tractor and then engaged the pto clutch. The blower was almost jumping off the ground it was shaking so bad.

The blower had been running before and was smooth. It was only bottoming out when I raised the blower so I knew something I had done was very wrong.

I started to study the two cut off pieces of pto shaft, one with the bump. I suddenly realized the bump only allowed the pto shaft to slide into the female half in one position.
That position had the two u joints in phase. I quickly took the pto shaft off the tractor, pulled the two halves apart, turned the tractor end 90 degrees and re slid the shaft back together.
This time everything was back to running smooth.

I welded a bump on the male shaft to prevent someone else from putting it together wrong but I never forgot what had happened.

Truck shops which shorten or lengthen truck frames to accommodate various aftermarket bodies, tanks, mixers etc pay a lot of attention to the driveshaft and not only do they index it perfectly but they balance it to great precision.

On tractors where the u joint angles are close to flat, you may not notice a phasing problem but as the angle increases, the pulsation does exponentially.

Pto shafts which are required to transmit high torque on large tractor have shafts with more lobes (than the typical tri oval) as it makes the shaft less resistant to sliding in and out under load.

Dave M7040
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #35  
Good info Dave. I never had that experience in all these years and was ignorant of the problem. I certainly knew the driveline people were very careful with balancing. I just never knew it mattered that U-joint clevises be lined up the same way on both ends of a driveline. I don't understand why but apparently it matters.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #36  
Yes, phasing matters and yes, the people that understand it will make sure shafts are phased. It doesn't matter if it is a pto shaft, drive shaft, or any other shaft, if it has u-joints on each end, it should be phased. The more the angles, the more it will matter. If a driveshaft shop doesn't pay attention to phasing....they won't be in business long. I have done driveshaft work and have set up jeeps and driveline angles (CV joints affect those too). Years back I worked on a medium duty truck that the owner didn't phase the shaft when he installed it. At speed it felt like the shaft was out of balance by 5lbs.
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #37  
This is a good video showing that a unphased shaft will cause the output of the shaft to change speed. Also, not having equal u-joint angles will cause speed differences. If the op's blower is being forced to speed/slow twice every revolution, it will be tough on the shear pins.
shaft phasing - YouTube
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #39  
Good info Dave. I never had that experience in all these years and was ignorant of the problem. I certainly knew the driveline people were very careful with balancing. I just never knew it mattered that U-joint clevises be lined up the same way on both ends of a driveline. I don't understand why but apparently it matters.

JWR
The reason is quite simple.
If you measure the degrees of rotation on one side of a simple u joint and compare it to the rotation on other side of the u joint ( assuming the joint is at an angle otherwise why would you need it) you will see that when the input side of the joint rotates say 30 degrees, the other side of the joint will turn a different number of degrees. By the time you complete a fully revolution of 360 degrees, both side of the joint will be back together. Each side of the joint is speeding up or slowing down during the complete revolution.

If you have a pto shaft with a u joint at each end, by correctly phasing the joints, the speeding up and slowing down of each half of each joint will balance each other out and the shaft will rotate smoothly.

Front wheel drive cars brought with them constant velocity joints. The phrase constant velocity comes from the fact that each side of the joint rotates exactly the same number of degrees and is devoid of the vibrations of the simple u joints plus they are able to operate at greater steering angles which all cars need in order to park.

Hope this explanation helps.

Images of the square style pto shaft I was talking about.

fo1xjc.jpg

2lc9nyg.jpg


Dave M7040
 
   / Going through second stage bolts #40  
This is a good video showing that a unphased shaft will cause the output of the shaft to change speed. Also, not having equal u-joint angles will cause speed differences. If the op's blower is being forced to speed/slow twice every revolution, it will be tough on the shear pins.
shaft phasing - YouTube

That video is REALLY an eye opener. I'm just blown away how ignorant I was of the entire issue. Thanks to you and Dave for speaking up.
 

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