Going back to dealer!

[hunt4570]

Dont know when they added it, but I found it by accident. It was not listed anywhere and I could not find any info on it and was really getting frustrated when mine was doing the same as you state in you original posting and untill another member started commenting on my thread I had running and shined some light on the matter. Give it a try, and let us know what happens.

So how much more "force" is needed to move the control to that realm? I'd hate to break something!

And its the same way with dump or curl?

 

[hunt4570]

Been there and done that too....What he said.........

Dont know if this will work for you,and you may already know this, But......
Before you take it to the dealer, start the tractor, lower the boom to the ground. let go of the controls, when bucket gets to the ground. Push the control as if you are going to dump the bucket (Bucket will not curl under). While holding the control to the right for dumping.....give the control a little extra push....to the right. It may feel as if it wont go, but there is another function in the stick that forces pressure to make the bucket curl under as he said above, Its just on another detent. Dont ask how I figured this out. Long story.....

Ok,I cant stand it any longer... How did you figure this out? Inquiring minds want to know!:laughing:

 

[boggen]

Does curl/ dump have its own relief?

Evidentally the check valves are good and it is cycling oil if the bucket moves under load.

One thought, blown cyl packing.

Leave lift hose in, remove dump hose, pressurize lift, see if oil blows out dump.

Remember dump lift swap depending on spool direction

adding some comments to Soundguy post....

was going to say pressure relief valve as well. maybe set to low or some how got adjusted wrong.

would assume need a dealer testing, due to needing of extra equipment to test max pressure relief settings.

i would more likely suspect max pressure relief, if levers / joystick was replaced from original that came with tractor, for the FEL.

for my machines and my hearing. when i hit pressure relief valves ((trying to lift something to much for example)) i generally here some sort of "whin" or "hissing sound" coming from the hyd valves were the pressure relief valves are located. sound is coming from hyd oil trying to pass through a really small hole as pressure relief valves begin to kick in.

i can get the backhoe pressure relief valves to kick in a lot, FEL on other hand can be a bit more difficult to get pressure relief valves to kick in. and generally requires me digging into undisturbed soil with the FEL, and/or trying to pry some stuff up with it.

===========
quote "One thought, blown cyl packing." internal seals inside one of the bucket cylinders, would be allowing oil to pass from one side to the other side. might also be something.

a full bucket of wet sand. and holding it up in air, and no creep / falling. is not the test for this. hyd oil has no place to go in the cylinder. the leak will more likely appear when joystick/levers are in use and actually trying to curl / uncurl the bucket.

==========
quick connects on hyd hoses. some times do not "seat correctly" when you put them together. undoing the quick connects and re-connecting, is an attempt to make a correct connection.

every try and hook something up to an air compressor quick connect. and the stupid thing will not seat correctly and blow out air around the quick connect? until ya pull air tool off and redo the pulling down on the quick connect and try again. same kinda thing for hyd hose quick connects. though hyd hose quick connects are more made, so hyd oil does not spray out, like an air quick connect does for your air compressor / air tools.

 

[bumperm]

Regen has been a feature of some front loaders since at least the early 2000's, and likely before . . . don't know when it was first used. Most all more recent Kubota loaders have it.

Way off topic, but my B3350 is a 2014. The spec for this tractor does not include UDT. It says to use Super UDT2 only. However, the change interval is 400 hours. Filters get the first change at 50 hours - - One has only to hook up a shop vac the oil fill port and there is just a few ounces of oil lost when replacing the filter, and none at all lost when adjusting the relief valve to the right spec to get more loader lift capability (mine was set almost 400 psi lower than mac, so I gained about 20% more power).

 

[bx25jim]

So how much more "force" is needed to move the control to that realm? I'd hate to break something!

And its the same way with dump or curl?

I didnt want to hijack this thread with how I found this function, but it is on another forum I am on that shed a lot of light on a issue mine had that the dealer did have to fix. They could not even explain why this extra curl function is not listed anywhere. Soooo.......

Here is my other thread on this.....BX25D loader control valve quandary - OrangeTractorTalks - Everything Kubota If I am not allowed to post this link, please remove.....Thanks

You know about the float function for the bucket? When you move the control lever forward and the boom goes down with force when it gets to the ground it will lift the tractor, and then you can move the control a little further up to get it to float? Same thing with the curl function. It takes a little force to push it past the detente ball. I doubt if you push it over you will break anything. If nothing else, Call your dealer and see if he can verify this. I would really hate for you to load it up and get it there and they show this to you.

 

[hunt4570]

I didnt want to hijack this thread with how I found this function, but it is on another forum I am on that shed a lot of light on a issue mine had that the dealer did have to fix. They could not even explain why this extra curl function is not listed anywhere. Soooo.......

Here is my other thread on this.....BX25D loader control valve quandary - OrangeTractorTalks - Everything Kubota If I am not allowed to post this link, please remove.....Thanks

You know about the float function for the bucket? When you move the control lever forward and the boom goes down with force when it gets to the ground it will lift the tractor, and then you can move the control a little further up to get it to float? Same thing with the curl function. It takes a little force to push it past the detente ball. I doubt if you push it over you will break anything. If nothing else, Call your dealer and see if he can verify this. I would really hate for you to load it up and get it there and they show this to you.

Now I know on the dump side of the control I have slow dump, and if I go farther , past light detent, I get a fast dump.. even shows it on the control sticker on the tractor. So its more than this?

 

[hunt4570]

adding some comments to Soundguy post....

was going to say pressure relief valve as well. maybe set to low or some how got adjusted wrong.

would assume need a dealer testing, due to needing of extra equipment to test max pressure relief settings.

i would more likely suspect max pressure relief, if levers / joystick was replaced from original that came with tractor, for the FEL.

for my machines and my hearing. when i hit pressure relief valves ((trying to lift something to much for example)) i generally here some sort of "whin" or "hissing sound" coming from the hyd valves were the pressure relief valves are located. sound is coming from hyd oil trying to pass through a really small hole as pressure relief valves begin to kick in.

i can get the backhoe pressure relief valves to kick in a lot, FEL on other hand can be a bit more difficult to get pressure relief valves to kick in. and generally requires me digging into undisturbed soil with the FEL, and/or trying to pry some stuff up with it.

===========
quote "One thought, blown cyl packing." internal seals inside one of the bucket cylinders, would be allowing oil to pass from one side to the other side. might also be something.

a full bucket of wet sand. and holding it up in air, and no creep / falling. is not the test for this. hyd oil has no place to go in the cylinder. the leak will more likely appear when joystick/levers are in use and actually trying to curl / uncurl the bucket.

==========
quick connects on hyd hoses. some times do not "seat correctly" when you put them together. undoing the quick connects and re-connecting, is an attempt to make a correct connection.

every try and hook something up to an air compressor quick connect. and the stupid thing will not seat correctly and blow out air around the quick connect? until ya pull air tool off and redo the pulling down on the quick connect and try again. same kinda thing for hyd hose quick connects. though hyd hose quick connects are more made, so hyd oil does not spray out, like an air quick connect does for your air compressor / air tools.

I did disconnect/connect the loader hoses to see if it made a difference and it did not.

And I know what it sounds like to hit that pressure relief and I do not get that at all.

 

[bx25jim]

Now I know on the dump side of the control I have slow dump, and if I go farther , past light detent, I get a fast dump.. even shows it on the control sticker on the tractor. So its more than this?

Thats the control I was speaking of. The sticker on my tractor didnt show this function. If you are already going past the slow dump to the fast dump stage which applies pressure in the down curl mode, then you have a low pressure issue I would say. And if you are not hitting the pressure relief valve would indicate the same. Sorry I cannot help more than this. But I would get a gauge and see what it is set at.

 

[TripleR]

I have heard of this also, how did you determine that was it? I dont just want to start replacing things at random.

My brother took some off my M8540 we knew were good and swapped them out.

 

[bumperm]

As bx25jim says.

On my B3350, moving the joystick to the right "normally", the loader dumps and with more weight can dump even faster depending on amount of stick movement within this first range - this is the "regen" range, or as the manual calls it, "R1" - over a detent beyond R1, is R2. There is no down force in R1 other than gravity and the weight of the bucket. Amount of weight and stick position controls dump speed. When using the front loader, this is all seamless as far as the operator is concerned, fast and efficient with a faster dump that would be available if powering the dump with hydraulics (with power down, there's also the cylinder unequal displacement issue as the piston rod takes up volume on one side, so a simple power dump with no regen, tends to create an air bubble on the cylinder's opposite side and this creates flop - that problem goes away with regen).

So R1 regen is the normal op mode and it's easy to forget there's an R2 mode over the detent. R2 gives you power un-curl. I run into this when lifting the front end a bit for stabilizing the backhoe on uneven terrain when the loader arms are full down and that's not enough height. The natural reaction is to uncurl the bucket a bit more and there ain't no power there. Oops, further over to R2 and the front wheels come up.

There is a caveat. Regen applies pressure, up to relief valve setting, to both sides of the curl cylinder at the same time. When using curl loader ports for other purposes, say a hydraulic motor to turn a front mounted snowblower chute, it is important to quickly move the lever through R1 over into the R2 range so as to minimize the chance of blowing seals in the hydraulic motor while in R1.

 

[hunt4570]

As bx25jim says.

On my B3350, moving the joystick to the right "normally", the loader dumps and with more weight can dump even faster depending on amount of stick movement within this first range - this is the "regen" range, or as the manual calls it, "R1" - over a detent beyond R1, is R2. There is no down force in R1 other than gravity and the weight of the bucket. Amount of weight and stick position controls dump speed. When using the front loader, this is all seamless as far as the operator is concerned, fast and efficient with a faster dump that would be available if powering the dump with hydraulics (with power down, there's also the cylinder unequal displacement issue as the piston rod takes up volume on one side, so a simple power dump with no regen, tends to create an air bubble on the cylinder's opposite side and this creates flop - that problem goes away with regen).

So R1 regen is the normal op mode and it's easy to forget there's an R2 mode over the detent. R2 gives you power un-curl. I run into this when lifting the front end a bit for stabilizing the backhoe on uneven terrain when the loader arms are full down and that's not enough height. The natural reaction is to uncurl the bucket a bit more and there ain't no power there. Oops, further over to R2 and the front wheels come up.

There is a caveat. Regen applies pressure, up to relief valve setting, to both sides of the curl cylinder at the same time. When using curl loader ports for other purposes, say a hydraulic motor to turn a front mounted snowblower chute, it is important to quickly move the lever through R1 over into the R2 range so as to minimize the chance of blowing seals in the hydraulic motor while in R1.

Thats all well and good on the dump side, but does nothing for me if I'm trying to pry something out of the ground!

 

[boggen]

"from soundguy" One thought, blown cyl packing.

Leave lift hose in, remove dump hose, pressurize lift, see if oil blows out dump.

thinking it out load of soundguy last sentence above....

fully extend the hyd cylinders for the bucket.
--nearest to the rod portion of the hyd cyinders. disconnect that hose (remove hose / quick connect)
--try to extend the hyd cylinders more (pressure relief most likely will kick in). hold it there for a couple seconds.
--if a seal is bad, and trying to still fully extend cylinders, leakage should get by the seals and blow out of the hose.
--reconnect everything...
--you will need to fully extend and fully contract the bucket cylinders a few times, to clear them of majority of all the air. then just normal use of FEL will help clear out any little bit of air in the hyd cylinders. until majorty if not all the air is out. the bucket / FEL arms may have some bounce to them.

repeat above but opposite ends of cylinder checking...

--fully contract the cylinders.
--disconnect hose furthest away from the (rod end of the hyd cylinders) (no quick connect on hose)
--try and contract the cylinders. if a seal is bad in the hyd cylinders, you should get oil coming out. ((no oil = good to go most likely))
--reconnect everything....
--you will need to fully extend and fully contract the bucket cylinders a few times, to clear them of majority of all the air. then just normal use of FEL will help clear out any little bit of air in the hyd cylinders. until majority if not all the air is out. the bucket / FEL arms may have some bounce to them.

goal of above, each rod inside the hyd cylinder has some "seals" and many times there is a large nut, that holds them in place. some times this nut has came loose on folks. and it might be letting seals do there job. other times the seals just go bad. some times the rod gets bent and the seals end getting damaged as well. and the goal of the test. is to see if seals hold when tractor is on, and using the joystick to actually put a force on things to test the seals out.

if you had a pressure gauge and a quick connect hose for it. this would be easier and less messy to check. a dealer more likely already has this.

 

[bumperm]

Thats all well and good on the dump side, but does nothing for me if I'm trying to pry something out of the ground!

For prying something out of the ground with the bucket, curl works the same in both R1 or R2. Regen in R1 affects only the down force of the uncurl or dump. Now it well could be that you want downforce to get under a rock or some such, then take the lever full over (if regen is the first range) past regen into R2.

 

[hunt4570]

For prying something out of the ground with the bucket, curl works the same in both R1 or R2. Regen in R1 affects only the down force of the uncurl or dump. Now it well could be that you want downforce to get under a rock or some such, then take the lever full over (if regen is the first range) past regen into R2.

There is only one position for curl.. no R1 & R2.. , only dump has the second position.

 

[hunt4570]

Ok, played with it enough with no changes...

Off to the dealer it goes..

 

[gwstang]

Oh man! That is one sad sad picture!

 

[hunt4570]

Oh man! That is one sad sad picture!

Yes it is!!!

They promised they'd have it back early in the week... man I hope so!!

 

[hunt4570]

Ok, got this guy back a couple days ago. They went through the hydraulic system, adjusted the 3 point controls, checked for any leaking cylinders and such, and set the pressure up. Pressure was at the lower end of the specs and they bumped it up to the max.

Still no joy! Better but not "right" in my opinion! Was talking with the dealership guy and he mentioned my loader bucket... its an old rusty, old style bucket that had the QD welded on the back.. kind of a farm style conversion to work. He asked me to measure the distance from the leading edge of the bucket to the mounting plate surface... I was at just about 30 inches. He said the stock bucket was 20 inches, that makes mine and increase of about 33%! He's thinking that is the problem with the leverage on my loader.

He says a new bucket is $781 out the door.. ouch! I told him I was worried about spending that much $$ and it not fixing the problem. He said I could come get the bucket and take it home to try, if it doesn't work... take it back.. wow, that's cool. Looks like a new bucket is in my future.

Thoughts? Simple geometry maybe?

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Ok, got this guy back a couple days ago. They went through the hydraulic system, adjusted the 3 point controls, checked for any leaking cylinders and such, and set the pressure up. Pressure was at the lower end of the specs and they bumped it up to the max.

Still no joy! Better but not "right" in my opinion! Was talking with the dealership guy and he mentioned my loader bucket... its an old rusty, old style bucket that had the QD welded on the back.. kind of a farm style conversion to work. He asked me to measure the distance from the leading edge of the bucket to the mounting plate surface... I was at just about 30 inches. He said the stock bucket was 20 inches, that makes mine and increase of about 33%! He's thinking that is the problem with the leverage on my loader.

He says a new bucket is $781 out the door.. ouch! I told him I was worried about spending that much $$ and it not fixing the problem. He said I could come get the bucket and take it home to try, if it doesn't work... take it back.. wow, that's cool. Looks like a new bucket is in my future.

Thoughts? Simple geometry maybe?

And that is why everyone harps over the importance of a good dealer!

 

[hunt4570]

And that is why everyone harps over the importance of a good dealer!

Yeah, little dealer in a little bitty town about 25 miles from here. I've no trailer so it cost me $150 for pickup and delivery, but the rest of the bill was only another $150 so I didn't think it was too bad!

Don't really want to spend that kind of money on a bucket, but with the option of taking it back if it doesn't fix the problem is HUGE!!! To spend that kind of money on a bucket and still have the problem would really hurt!