GM's Duramax Diesel engine

/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #41  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

How did the Dodge compare to the GM in 97? I bet next years Dodge equals or surpasses the Duramax spec wise. All it takes these days is a processor download.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by bgott on 10/15/01 11:41 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #42  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott,
In 97 GM wasn't much but an afterthought in a diesel selection. GM has always had terrible diesels because they tryed to design them like a gas engine and not a true diesel engine. Ford and Dodge were really your only choices in 97 and only diehard GM loyalists or those wanting to save a buck and drive a diesel bought them. I do hope that they do well though as it will raise the bar, like you said, for Dodge and Ford to make a better truck.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine
  • Thread Starter
#43  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

Cowboy, I agree, in 97 I looked at the Dodge Cummings diesel and while I liked the concept, the noise it made just sitting there ideling, let alone driving down the road, wasn't satisfactory to me or the boss.
Now the Duramax comes along and boy is it quiet, inside and out, and has good power. I had a 97 Ram with the 360ci V8 before and boy did it have good low end power, but at 15mpg, it could swallow the gas.
The Duramax doesn't have that same initail "seat pressing G force", but within a second or two, catches up and really kicks in at the 2000rpm and the 6 speed trans really keeps the 0-60mph down to about 8secs "from the Motor Trend tests" not mine...

As far as it being a "new ball", and here I'll say I don't believe everything I read on the internet, but given Izuzu's past expierience with diesels and the several years of testing on the Duramax, and the 100k/5yr warranty, I have a pretty good feeling about the engine lasting long enough for me. I had put 60k on my Ram in 5 years.

I've got to go sit down now, my legs are tired from running (65mph) /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

gary
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #44  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott, I did not seriously consider GM products in '97. A close friend (the B-17 tail gunner I wrote about) had a nightmare with his GM diesel pickup. First engine went out and was replaced under waranty. Second engine went out and was replaced under waranty. He sold the truck with the fresh factory engine (ENGINE #3) running and a warning to the buyer that he didn't think the engines were too good (honest kinda guy).

I only really compared Ford and Dodge and it went like this... I wanted a diesel one ton with extended cab 4wd automatic and Ford did not produce one in '97. I tried at two dealerships and the salesmen were unaware that it didn't exist that year so they tried to order me one and low and behold, no joy! Next I tried to get a cab-chassis (as I would have to remove the stock bed to install my custom service body) but neither Ford nor Dodge would sell me a cab-chassis extended cab, only a regular "short" cab) So by process of elimination (sounds ripe for a pun, doesn't it?) I chose the Dodge, or actually reality chose the Dodge for me. I had owned 6-7 Ford pickups previously (and no other brand of P/U). Last Ford was diesel and I really liked it ('84 non turbo) but it was a 3/4 ton and I wanted to carry a really big self contained camper (Ford was good for about 8800lbs GVW) and the Dodge was rated at 11,000 GVW and had redundancy in the dual rear wheels.

Going into this adventure I was of the mind that there wasn't $0.50 worth of differrence between Ford and Dodge and was looking for a Ford (dumb mindset) but found a Dodge. The Dodge works fine (except for the electric clutch fan which is out now) is very strong, gets fair economy, rides good loaded down, looks OK, etc but even with the EXTREME pricing of the Duramax/Allison I have significantly more in my Dodge trying to get to the same sort of solution.

Don't know the dealer network for the GM P/U but many Dodge dealers can't find their backsides with a map, flashlight, and a troop of boyscouts when it comes to diesels. I have multiple horror stories of that genre (avail on request). The saving grace is that the Cummins shops DO know the engines and have been really tops. The trick is to embarrass the Dodge folks into authorizing Cummins to do the work.

I'll be keeping what I have for as long as is economically practical. If I were shopping today, I'd be looking at Dodges and Fords real serious like and maybe drooling on a Duramax. Couple more years down the road with a good proven track record and Duramax/Allison would be in the horse race as well. I have had too many arrows in the backside to want to be a pioneer all the time.

Patrick
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #45  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

Patrick,
I agree with everything you say except that Ford did not produce a 1 ton extended cab 4wd with automatic in 1997. It seems like the Ford dealer you were talking to didn't know too much about them either. I say this because my brother has one just like that, my neighbor has one, and my grandpa has two at the ranch with the only difference being those two are stick and not automatics. http://www.edmunds.com/used/1997/fo...cablb/prices.html?submit=Customized+Appraisal

Also here is a website where you can work up the price for that exact same truck.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #46  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

Richard,
Are they single or dual rear wheel? When in the "model year" were they purchased and were they available in California? Note: there are vehicles made to sell in California and vehicles made for sale in the other 49 states. AND make that two Ford dealers. First one that failed to be able to order what I wanted didn't stop me as I wrote it off to incompetence and went to another dealer but got the same results. Oh well, if Ford did have it maybe this perturbation of the evolutionary course of events toward Dodge will produce a branch with better survival odds. If nothing else a little diversity guards against too limited of a gene pool.
Going into this selection process I thought there wasn't $0.50 difference in Ford and Dodge. With 4+ years of experience I think I did the right thing but freely admit I was buying an engine and a basic platform on which to engineer what I wanted. I am pleased with the 12 valve Cummins "B" engine (as up rated). I was a tad surprised by the advances made between 1984 (My Ford diesel) and 1997 (My Dodge diesel) in creature comforts and the like. I don't window shop and tire kick each model year. When I need a truck I employ a fairly rigorous structured process to evaluate, decide, and purchase, then don't darken the door of a showroom until I need a truck again. The truck before the 1984 was a 1964 Ford 292 propane only not duel fuel so you see I only come up to parascope depth to view the selection when needed, not for sport.
If/when this truck no longer meets my requirements for safety, reliability, function, economy, comfort, and lack of embarrassing appearance (listed in priority order) I will replace it with whatever filters through my structured selection process with the highest marks at that time. I will be happy to include the Duramax/Allison in that horserace if it doesn't get elliminated for cause by some negative family trait or replaced by newer better technology.

Patrick
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #47  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott,
Chip,processor download, whatever. Not applicable to the ancient technology in my 12 valve Cummins. My uprates were all expensive hardware. Injection pump, injectors, 4in. exhaust, aux OD tranny, HD low stall speed converter all of which works fine but not so cheap or easy as a "programable" powerplant that can be customized in software. I needed a truck. If I could have waited a year I would have got the first Quad Cab A N D the 24 valve software customizable engine. Ranks right up there with my buy high sell low credo.

Patrick
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #48  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

patrick,
The trucks that my family and friend have are both DRW and SRW. Now about CA that may be. CA might as well be it's own country in reality. I agree with you that there wasn't a whole lot of difference between the two trucks. Either way you couldn't go wrong buying either one. I've just been a Ford man all my life. The family and myself have always driven Ford pickups and have owned every year of diesel that Ford has made from 1983. Great pickups but so is Dodge.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #49  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

I've got the '98 with the 24 valve. I haven't bombed ( whatever that means ) it yet but I'm not doing any heavy pulling right now. One thing that irks me. All you have to do to uprate this thing is a download to jump this engine from 465 to 505 pounds feet of torque. However, Cummins won't just sell you the download. You have to buy a $900 computer.
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #50  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott,
Actually if you have the computerized motor you can just buy a chip for less than $300 to get 60 more hp and 100 lbs. of torque.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #51  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

I've seen them at www.turbodieselregistery.com. Or in links from there, anyway. I was just upset that the manufacturer had the audacity to sell you another whole computer when a simple download would do.
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #52  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

Brad, If you have a dodge you can check this site out. Click Here They also have alot of other stuff for diesels to.
___________________________________________________
Take care, Jim

2001 B7500 HST 302 Fel R4 Tires, Befco BRB60
Semper Fidelis<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Devildog on 10/19/01 08:35 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #53  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott, Yeah, software is a wonderful thing, too bad computers are just a passing fad!

There are other considerations beyond getting more torque and HP out of the Cummins B 5.9 (AKA Super Bee, Killer Bee, etc) Note the torque rating of the 10 cyl gas engine and the Cummins with automagic (automatic)tranny, then note the torque specs with stick. Auto is downrated and in Cal downrated even more (12 valve recollections). The automatic in the Dodge will not safely handle much increased torque. As a minimum I would think the prudent hot rodder (if it waddles and quacks, call it a duck) should go for a beefed up torgue converter. Cummins used to offer an uprate for HP with virtually no increase in torque (for 12 valve) just because of Dodge's weak drive train.
Once you uprate the torque (and actually use it), your torque converter is living on borrowed time. An aux tranny cooler is good but you need a beefier converter (avail from several sources, see TDR advertisers). I put in a BD low stall speed HD converter and have had zero problems but I don't exceed 300 HP and 650 lb-ft.
In marine applications this engine (12 valve) produces 400+ HP for extended run times (days, weeks?) so the basic engine is capable of reliably producing 400 HP for extended periods. Dodge's auto tranny is the weakest link in getting BIG truck performance.
Another drawback is the Dodge automatic overdrive (aka, 4 speed automatic tranny). Third gear is 1:1 so 4th is technically "overdrive" but I come from a time when overdrive was a multiplier available for use in all gears, hence if you had a three speed stick with OD you had 6 forward speeds. A specific difficulty with the Dodge tranny is the HUGE step between 3rd and 4th (AKA OD). If you are not able to pull a hill well in 4th and shift to 3rd you loose a lot of speed since the step is so big. If the hill flattens out a bit but not enough to allow 4th you are stuck at 45-50 unless you don't mind relativistic RPMs in excess of red line.
I added an aux OD to my rig (MFG by Gear Vendors in San Diego) so I have (not counting 4 wheel low range) 8 forward speeds available and can shift in and out of OD electrically under full load with no problems as the unit was designed to shift under load. They sell a version for race boats and dragsters, they are tough. The unit is called a gear splitter as its OD ratio essentially gives you gears midway between your Dodge gears. Pretty handy to have what is essentially 3rd and a half gear for the hill situation I mentioned. I have pulled really steep grades off-road in 1, 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, and interstate grades in 3, 3 1/2 whatever does the trick. The down side is that when decelerating with the exhaust brake you must be in a Dodge gear not in a half gear as the gears in the G-V unit are helical cut to develop thrust to assist the unit's clutch in engaging under load. It took a bit of learning but being a drummer and being able to rub my belly and pat my head at the same time I had no major cognitive overload when running through the gears and half gears. I typically use 3 1/2 much much more than any other half gear so it is pretty trivial.
If you don't need to set any cross country minimum driving time records, maybe with a Dodge you need a Gear Vendors aux OD much more than you need to mod the engine. With the right gears you will do much better than with stock automatic. A BIG exhaust will reduce your turbo spool up time and get you off the line much better and add a measureable but small increase in HP at higher RPM and a touch of fuel economy. I went farther than I may have needed but with a utility bed and the largest Lance slide in camper and towing all at the sime time (5ft receiver hitch extension), I probably erred on the side of "MORE POWER!!!. uhh uhh uhh)
Just remember to chant this mantra ("I am my own waranty station, I am my own waranty station...") as Dodge will go to great lengths to deny waranty if you change anything on the engine but the oil.

Patrick
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #54  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

I have a five speed so I just have to worry about blowing the clutch and spinning the nut off of fifth gear. :( I haven't found a Dodge dealer yet that really knows anything about these motors. I have an injection pump that gets a little funky at times so I'm going to give them a PITA and see if I can get them to let me take it to Cummins. I might also go ahead and pay Cummins to do a diagnostic and throw it in Dodge's face. I can buy a service manual and upgrade my Snap-On scanner and figure it out myself but I damn sure don't want to buy a pump while the engine is still under warranty.
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #55  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

bgott, Yeah, with a 5 speed there are fewer folks who feel the need for aux OD but suprisingly there are those users with 5 spd and aux OD who swear by the combo. It is about like having a 2 spd rear end. You can be 4.11 with a load on up a hill and 4.54 on the flat or lightly loaded. Holds down the R's for me. IF (big if) I were to cruise at 2000 RPM I'm making a road speed over 85MPH but out of OD I'm 4.11 and pulling strong. I went for auto for four reasons: 1. Wife can drive it easier (she has driven a deuce and a half, double clutching and all that but prefers auto), 2. Far far easier to maneuver in tight spaces like backing a load up a hill or launching and recovering a boat or whatever, 3. higher resale value, and 4. many off road and other low traction situations are best handled by slow, steady, and cautious applications of power at low vehicle speeds (read "red letter opportunity to burn up a clutch").

Again, see the TDR advertisers for "bullet proof" clutches.

Patrick
 
/ GM's Duramax Diesel engine #56  
Re: GM\'s Duramax Diesel engine

That is the biggest problem with diesels, getting the power out through a tranny. None of the existing auto's were designed to handle the torque one of these beasties can put out.

The Dodge tranny is pretty much a 727 with a electronic OD added. Now, I would think that if they could hold up to Hemi's and 440 six-packs, they could handle the diesel. But, it just aint so...

My Dad has worked for Dodge since '68. He said they have not had many problems with auto's coming through thier shop. But, they have not had that many that were hopped up...

Until this new Allison/Duramax, there just has not been a beefy enough auto available. I'm sure it must be economics; it would be expensive to retool for a beefy auto just for diesels.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif
 

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