Global Warming?

Status
Not open for further replies.
/ Global Warming? #2,241  
I love the talk about how you have to be in the field to talk about someone's work/research/option. The whole public money thing aside, this really isn't a road to be on. When you box in your "group" you get drift from the main stream. I really like that mentality, only people on my field can judge me. Somehow I doubt they default to their medical doctor under the same pretense. Or matters of economics or military. Goes right back to the elitism. I know better than you, how dare you challenge me.
I know your not clinging to this idea that scientist are above agendas because that's just ridiculous.
There is always a motivate, always a reason. And by some act of god, you find this pure of heart scientist who's self funded, I would be excited to read his studies. But I'm also waiting to win the lotto, my chickens to lay golden eggs, and the fields to plant themselves.
I guess all the agenda behind promoting AGW fell on deaf ears. Your own leaders of the movement words weren't enough. At some point, people will figure out this out. You can't insulate these studies enough. I just hope the blowback doesn't take all the good in an attempt to right the bad.

Yeah, experts really suck. I think truck drivers would be just as good at critiquing bridge engineering as civil engineers. I think cooks should be able to critique air traffic control protocols. I think radiologists should determine where to dig oil wells. I think your argument is pretty obviously nuts too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you can believe whatever you like including that the earth is flat. However, I for one will not listen to a self appointed "agendist" as an authority on a scientific issue. Global climate change is a scientific problem/question not a vote comparable to who likes chocolate better than vanilla. Yes, experts are sometimes elite. Glad we have them. Would you like to rely on elite special forces to plan special operations or just anyone who finished basic training and volunteered themselves for the job? We go through anti intellectual phases in this country periodically. We seem to be in one now and it looks like you subscribe to the Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, James Inhofe school of science who think they know better and like to disparage any climate scientist who disagrees with them. To my knowledge none of them has ever prepared themselves as scientists before inflicting their own scientific opinions on us. I prefer listening to experts who actually do the science and discuss their findings in peer reviewed journals.

I never stated that scientists were above having agendas. Quite to the contrary I believe they often have pet theories and in some cases have political agendas. My point is that the best way to "out" these biased scientists is to simply let science do it's job unfettered by politicians, alarmists and reactionaries. Other scientists will catch the errors and generate data to correct mistakes. Science, done without interference, virtually always self corrects. It's the nature of the beast. The example I gave earlier of how Stalin distorted and destroyed biology in Russia is an extreme and pretty rare example of how bad it can get. Even that example shows that a very powerful man and organization can distort science only locally (Russia, USSR) and that other scientists outside his reach rapidly correct those mistakes. There are other many other examples too but altogether these distorted examples account for a very very small part of the scientific output. Science is not exactly immune to politics but it is really really hard for politicians to severely distort the scientific process for long. Stamp out stem cell research in the USA and it will pop up in Singapore etc etc.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,242  
IslandTractor said:
Yeah, experts really suck. I think truck drivers would be just as good at critiquing bridge engineering as civil engineers. I think cooks should be able to critique air traffic control protocols. I think radiologists should determine where to dig oil wells. I think your argument is pretty obviously nuts too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you can believe whatever you like including that the earth is flat. However, I for one will not listen to a self appointed "agendist" as an authority on a scientific issue. Global climate change is a scientific problem/question not a vote comparable to who likes chocolate better than vanilla. Yes, experts are sometimes elite. Glad we have them. Would you like to rely on elite special forces to plan special operations or just anyone who finished basic training and volunteered themselves for the job? We go through anti intellectual phases in this country periodically. We seem to be in one now and it looks like you subscribe to the Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, James Inhofe school of science who think they know better and like to disparage any climate scientist who disagrees with them. To my knowledge none of them has ever prepared themselves as scientists before inflicting their own scientific opinions on us. I prefer listening to experts who actually do the science and discuss their findings in peer reviewed journals.

I never stated that scientists were above having agendas. Quite to the contrary I believe they often have pet theories and in some cases have political agendas. My point is that the best way to "out" these biased scientists is to simply let science do it's job unfettered by politicians, alarmists and reactionaries. Other scientists will catch the errors and generate data to correct mistakes. Science, done without interference, virtually always self corrects. It's the nature of the beast. The example I gave earlier of how Stalin distorted and destroyed biology in Russia is an extreme and pretty rare example of how bad it can get. Even that example shows that a very powerful man and organization can distort science only locally (Russia, USSR) and that other scientists outside his reach rapidly correct those mistakes. There are other many other examples too but altogether these distorted examples account for a very very small part of the scientific output. Science is not exactly immune to politics but it is really really hard for politicians to severely distort the scientific process for long. Stamp out stem cell research in the USA and it will pop up in Singapore etc etc.

So when you see your doctor, you just go with whatever he says? Your 401k is managed by your economist with no input from you? All these average types should set down and know whats good for them. This idea that only certain people are able to make an input is crazy. I hope to god your not someone's boss. Your doing a great job painting yourself as an elite.
The big man at the front says one and one is three and we are all suppose to agree.
There's a saying in my job field, " don't be a will percipient in your own death". The idea being that you never take someone's status, experience, or credentials for granted.
The cherry picking and adjustment of the mainstream studies is reality. It puts all climate studies in a bad light and their peers unwillingness to do anything about it, brings all climatology groups out of the definition of a professional organization. If you won't hold your peers to a standard, well then it falls to the old "birds of a feather flock together".
I guess is what proof do you need? I gave quotes of scientists, enviro groups, EPA members, and champions of the cause. I've posted several counter studies poking holes in models and selective data mining. New studies and models linking climate to solar output, stellar distance, and even gravity. None of it being associated with air particles/content/density.
In the end it is a political question. You can not change the lives of millions by ending private property, starting population controls, and management of human consumption, and hide behind this idea it isn't political. It's socialism, my friend. In a different color.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,243  
I prefer listening to experts who actually do the science

Need I remind you :confused: that:


"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts"

:dance1:
 
/ Global Warming? #2,244  
So when you see your doctor, you just go with whatever he says? Your 401k is managed by your economist with no input from you? All these average types should set down and know whats good for them. This idea that only certain people are able to make an input is crazy. I hope to god your not someone's boss. Your doing a great job painting yourself as an elite.
The big man at the front says one and one is three and we are all suppose to agree.
There's a saying in my job field, " don't be a will percipient in your own death". The idea being that you never take someone's status, experience, or credentials for granted.
The cherry picking and adjustment of the mainstream studies is reality. It puts all climate studies in a bad light and their peers unwillingness to do anything about it, brings all climatology groups out of the definition of a professional organization. If you won't hold your peers to a standard, well then it falls to the old "birds of a feather flock together".
I guess is what proof do you need? I gave quotes of scientists, enviro groups, EPA members, and champions of the cause. I've posted several counter studies poking holes in models and selective data mining. New studies and models linking climate to solar output, stellar distance, and even gravity. None of it being associated with air particles/content/density.
In the end it is a political question. You can not change the lives of millions by ending private property, starting population controls, and management of human consumption, and hide behind this idea it isn't political. It's socialism, my friend. In a different color.

Your last paragraph makes my point. You think the issue of global climate change is "in the end a political question". I don't. I think it is a scientific question which needs to be solved and short of a clear cut solution (i.e. earth is round and all scientists agree the evidence is overwhelming so it is time to move on that information), we need to act responsibly based on what the preponderance of evidence does support.

Your agenda is clearly reflected in what you write next. Ending private property. Starting population controls. Management of human consumption. Socialism. Note that not one of your final questions is related to scientific evidence. You have a purely political agenda which drives your science criticism. You state that you've posted counter studies. Perhaps you have (I don't recall and have not read this whole thread) but are those valid and if so why have the vast majority of climate scientists continued to believe that man's activities are a significant driver of the climate changes? Does the fact that a particular counter study of yours appeals to you (? because you like the outcome implications) but is not highly regarded by the professionals not bother you and cause you to rethink your position? Are you just cherry picking data like Crichton to formulate an alternative explanation and ignoring the vast body of information that seems to disagree with your position. This really isn't about choosing chocolate versus vanilla. This is about science. Your opinion (or mine or Crichton's) really is not worth as much as that of a climate scientist. Similarly, your opinion on why you have a belly ache really isn't the same as the opinion of a surgeon who has experience in evaluating stomach pain, has examined you, has lab tests, an ultrasound and MRI in front of him. I understand that you get to ask him questions and may not accept his proposed therapy. That is your right and the equivalent of holding any opinion you want on climate change. However, I think most people would recognize that the surgeon is in a much better position than you to make the correct diagnosis and has the experience to recommend the most appropriate therapy. Being an informed consumer and asking questions is a lot different than being an expert.

You claim that scientists are cherry picking data. I would hold that politicians and novelists are the ones cherry picking data. And, given the complexity of the various models to explain climate change, I seriously doubt you or anyone else on TBN is in any position to support or criticize any of them. You throw around terms like solar output, stellar distance etc but do you really consider yourself in a position to judge these papers? Isn't that just like second guessing the surgeon? Have you have actually studied these fields enough to understand the methodology and analytic techniques used? We're not talking shade tree mechanics here that you can pick up in an afternoon or even a decade of self directed study. Would you submit yourself to surgery by someone who had read a few papers and had his own theory (contrary to what the government sponsored surgeons recommended) of how to proceed?

All these arguments about how the modeling is imprecise or that we just don't know what will happen in the next decade etc are functionally exactly the same as those who disputed Columbus. What was his proof that he earth was round? We won't know until you fall off the edge (or don't) so you cannot be sure the earth is round. Do you think he should have stayed in port until the data was incontrovertible?

Again, I think you have outed yourself as being primarily politically motivated in your criticism and are therefore exactly the biased sort of person you claim others to be.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,245  
All these arguments about how the modeling is imprecise or that we just don't know what will happen in the next decade etc are functionally exactly the same as those who disputed Columbus. What was his proof that he earth was round? We won't know until you fall off the edge (or don't) so you cannot be sure the earth is round. Do you think he should have stayed in port until the data was incontrovertible?

FYI..The Earth was proven to be round hundreds (if not thousands) of years (if you believed in the experts of the day) before Columbus...(back to school (wikipedia) for you) :laughing:
 
/ Global Warming? #2,246  
/pine said:
FYI..The Earth was proven to be round hundreds (if not thousands) of years (if you believed in the experts of the day) before Columbus...(back to school (wikipedia) for you) :laughing:

Ah, he's back, it must be recess at troll school.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,247  
The day anyone can explain to me how 'SCIENTIST" can use the same no strike the THE EXACT SAME data/information and come up with two POLAR OPPOSITE conclusions, then and only then will I buy gullible warming.

While all you young uns that believe in garbage science that was parroted to you by your God Al Gore, see I actually lived it in the 70's

Sit down, get comfy, and let me tell you a story:

WAY back in the 70's Time Magazine on it's cover told the world how "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world was going to have GLOBAL COOLING , and the entire world would freeze another Ice age.


Heres the cover if you don't believe me
http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf


You will notice they took climate date from waaaaaaay back in time and drew this conclusion. NOW- TODAY we have "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world is going to have GLOBAL WARMING , and the entire world would DRY UP AND BLOW AWAY.

No one on this planet much less all the scholars here can take the exact same info and get TWO ANSWERS, NO ONE. Once you understand that then you know Global warming AND cooling is BOVINE EXCREMENT.

Who know if I live Long enough they may declare GLOBAL NORMAL
 
/ Global Warming? #2,248  
Hi all

IslandTractor puts forward sensible arguments. Nice that we have some rational thinkers still hanging onto this thread :)

What will be amazing is that we will know the outcome of this TBN tread within several years - not several decades. It now appears that the Artic will be ice fee during the summers within a decade. The average global surface sea temp rise has been following the uppermost predictions of previous climate models. This should really worry the US as most models predict a lot less rainfall for the northern US regions producing much of the wheat and other grain crops that the UN relies on for famine relief. Africa will come out worse again - it's a basket case now and with less food it will be a destabilising influence politically.

Mike
 
/ Global Warming? #2,249  
Actually your actions are determined at birth and it's very unlikely logic or rational thought will persuade.

You believe in predestination? I always found that fascinating, my uncle was a Holiness preacher and had that belief.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,251  
There are ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production-with serious political implications for just about every nation on earth.

Does that sound familiar AGW fans? Only he was talking about cooling, not warming. Same song, different tune. AGW and it's followers are, well to be somewhat polite, gullible.
 
Last edited:
/ Global Warming? #2,252  
Cat_Driver said:
The day anyone can explain to me how 'SCIENTIST" can use the same no strike the THE EXACT SAME data/information and come up with two POLAR OPPOSITE conclusions, then and only then will I buy gullible warming.

While all you young uns that believe in garbage science that was parroted to you by your God Al Gore, see I actually lived it in the 70's

Sit down, get comfy, and let me tell you a story:

WAY back in the 70's Time Magazine on it's cover told the world how "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world was going to have GLOBAL COOLING , and the entire world would freeze another Ice age.

Heres the cover if you don't believe me
http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf

You will notice they took climate date from waaaaaaay back in time and drew this conclusion. NOW- TODAY we have "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world is going to have GLOBAL WARMING , and the entire world would DRY UP AND BLOW AWAY.

No one on this planet much less all the scholars here can take the exact same info and get TWO ANSWERS, NO ONE. Once you understand that then you know Global warming AND cooling is BOVINE EXCREMENT.

Who know if I live Long enough they may declare GLOBAL NORMAL

You show a profound ignorance of the scientific method and how science moves forward. I strongly recommend "The structure of scientific revolution" by Thomas Kuhn to help understand how scientists can look at the same data in different ways and come up with different conflicting theories and predictions. It is very well written, accessible to general readers, and a very valuable insight into how science works.

Regarding "my God" Al Gore, 1) I have no God, I trust the unfettered scientific process to move our state of knowledge forward, 2) I have never seen Inconvenient Truth nor read any of Gore's climate change writings. He is a politician not an expert just as Michael Crichton is a novelist and not an expert.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,253  
You believe in predestination? I always found that fascinating, my uncle was a Holiness preacher and had that belief.

A bit off topic, but your post reminded me of a story my freshman Chemistry professor (who was a BIG science fiction buff and avid reader) related to us during class one day:

Seems there was this Pilgrim farmer in the early days of this country, who was a fatalist and believed in predestination. On his way to the village one day, he encountered his neighbor, who informed him that he should take care, that there were hostile Indians about.

He replied: "If it is my fate to be killed by Indians, it was preordained by God and there is nothing I can do to prevent it."

The neighbor responded: "Then why do you carry your musket?"

"It may just be the fate of some Indian to meet his end by my hands and a bullet from this musket" the Pilgrim replied.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,254  
The day anyone can explain to me how 'SCIENTIST" can use the same no strike the THE EXACT SAME data/information and come up with two POLAR OPPOSITE conclusions, then and only then will I buy gullible warming.

While all you young uns that believe in garbage science that was parroted to you by your God Al Gore, see I actually lived it in the 70's

Sit down, get comfy, and let me tell you a story:

WAY back in the 70's Time Magazine on it's cover told the world how "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world was going to have GLOBAL COOLING , and the entire world would freeze another Ice age.


Heres the cover if you don't believe me
http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf


You will notice they took climate date from waaaaaaay back in time and drew this conclusion. NOW- TODAY we have "scientist' Great scholars, the brightest of the brightest, that the world is going to have GLOBAL WARMING , and the entire world would DRY UP AND BLOW AWAY.

No one on this planet much less all the scholars here can take the exact same info and get TWO ANSWERS, NO ONE. Once you understand that then you know Global warming AND cooling is BOVINE EXCREMENT.

Who know if I live Long enough they may declare GLOBAL NORMAL
I distinctly remember that as well. I also remember reading somewhere that the cooling that should have happened didn't and that's what started the research that pointed to the global warming thang. BTW i also remember reading that the methane from Bovine excrement due to the increased domestication and production of cattle was thought of the of to be the start of the, say isn't it supposed to be called climate change instead of global warming?
 
/ Global Warming? #2,255  
Drill baby drill!! Open the spigot, empty the reserves! .......but then what?
 
/ Global Warming? #2,256  
Drill baby drill!! Open the spigot, empty the reserves! .......but then what?

If we had developed and implemented an effective energy policy 40 years ago, there would have been a ready answer to your question.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,257  
AGW believers, and everyone else, please take a minute and read this article and tell me it isn't exactly what you hear today only cooling vs warming. The graph even "proves" the world was cooling, in the same period the graphs now show the world was warming. Dueling graphs but the same politics of control.
There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production – with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.

The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree – a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars’ worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.

To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world’s weather. The central fact is that after three quarters of a century of extraordinarily mild conditions, the earth’s climate seems to be cooling down. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. “A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, “because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century.”

A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.

To the layman, the relatively small changes in temperature and sunshine can be highly misleading. Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin points out that the Earth’s average temperature during the great Ice Ages was only about seven degrees lower than during its warmest eras – and that the present decline has taken the planet about a sixth of the way toward the Ice Age average. Others regard the cooling as a reversion to the “little ice age” conditions that brought bitter winters to much of Europe and northern America between 1600 and 1900 – years when the Thames used to freeze so solidly that Londoners roasted oxen on the ice and when iceboats sailed the Hudson River almost as far south as New York City.

Just what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery. “Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”

Meteorologists think that they can forecast the short-term results of the return to the norm of the last century. They begin by noting the slight drop in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and even local temperature increases – all of which have a direct impact on food supplies.

“The world’s food-producing system,” warns Dr. James D. McQuigg of NOAA’s Center for Climatic and Environmental Assessment, “is much more sensitive to the weather variable than it was even five years ago.” Furthermore, the growth of world population and creation of new national boundaries make it impossible for starving peoples to migrate from their devastated fields, as they did during past famines.

Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve. But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies. The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,259  
You show a profound ignorance of the scientific method and how science moves forward. I strongly recommend "The structure of scientific revolution" by Thomas Kuhn to help understand how scientists can look at the same data in different ways and come up with different conflicting theories and predictions. It is very well written, accessible to general readers, and a very valuable insight into how science works.

Regarding "my God" Al Gore, 1) I have no God, I trust the unfettered scientific process to move our state of knowledge forward, 2) I have never seen Inconvenient Truth nor read any of Gore's climate change writings. He is a politician not an expert just as Michael Crichton is a novelist and not an expert.

Bwahahaha and yet you oh wise one can not dispute my pacts and yet I can dispute YOUR facts. So who is the one that is profoundly ignorant.

Oh I love your Liberal talking point, this one made me spit my coffee out my nose. "science moves forward" again another profoundly ignorant statement. Science MAY "move forward" BUT DATA STANDS STILL.

I'll typele slowly so you can understand it this time, let me know if you want me to print it in crayons. NO ONE CAN TAKE TWO EXACT SAME NUMBERS AND GET TWO POLAR OPPOSITE CONCLUSIONS. And all the liberal talking points or name calling won't win your argument. Even a a Moron like me knows 2+2 will always be 4, but Liberal math means 2+2 equals whatever they want, and will defend false numbers with name calling. YA, how's that workin out for ya.

OH wait it must be Bush's fault, or I'm a racist...there I just stole all your liberal talking points, now your out of any rebuttal ammunition.

Sorry, one more, When Liberals flip flop they are EVOLVING, Bwhahahahahhaha, you Koolaid drinkers are fun thanks for all the laughs.
 
/ Global Warming? #2,260  
quote Cat-Driver "Even a a Moron like me knows 2+2 will always be 4, but Liberal math means 2+2 equals whatever they want, and will defend false numbers with name calling. YA, how's that workin out for ya."

In modulo 3 the sum of 2 + 2 is 1. And yes there are significant applications of systems other than Modulo 10 where your 2 + 2 is 4. If not for the binary system we would not be having this forum to discuss the topic. As a math teacher I just couldn't help myself. :dance1: 1 + 1 = 0 in the right environment.

Loren
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Marketplace Items

2005 PETERBILT 379 TRI AXLE  DUMP TRUCK (A59575)
2005 PETERBILT 379...
John Deere 4520 (A60462)
John Deere 4520...
UNUSED FUTURE 72PRO-72" MULCHER (A60432)
UNUSED FUTURE...
2011 Toro Workman HD Gas Utility Cart (A59228)
2011 Toro Workman...
2025 HD Trailer Solutions EQ15 T/A Equipment Trailer (A59230)
2025 HD Trailer...
FUTURE 60" PALLET FORK (A60432)
FUTURE 60" PALLET...
 
Top