I'm in complete agreement with your last sentence. Nor can we draw a good conclusion from less then two centuries worth of documentable weather information. Everything else (ice core samples, etc.) is anecdotal, based on suppositions that do not lend themselves to testable proof or disproof. This is one of the primary reasons I think it completely unjustified to make major changes in anything based on what is allegedly "known" at this time.
Global Warming News
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Loren49
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LTMC- If any action is delayed until all data is "testable to prove or disprove" it is clear that nothing will ever be done. It's tough to replicate the earth a couple times so we can have a proper scientific experiment. Also ice core studies taken from various locations on earth is not comparable to a localized weather event as to its value.
Conservative use of fossil fuels and reduction of our demand for foreign energy is a winner in any case. The evidence that CO2 concentrations are increasing rapidly is clear and with the billions of tons per year from fossil fuels man burns we may have something to do with it.
The path we should take is not black or white but we can't wait until we know the problem with 100% certainty. The damage would then be done and possibly would not be reversible. It's considerably easier to find flaws with years of data and reports than it is to do that science.
Loren
Conservative use of fossil fuels and reduction of our demand for foreign energy is a winner in any case. The evidence that CO2 concentrations are increasing rapidly is clear and with the billions of tons per year from fossil fuels man burns we may have something to do with it.
The path we should take is not black or white but we can't wait until we know the problem with 100% certainty. The damage would then be done and possibly would not be reversible. It's considerably easier to find flaws with years of data and reports than it is to do that science.
Loren
This discussion is beginning to remind me of the following story. Names have been changed to protect the innocent, moral of the story is for individual use only, YMMV, no nutrition or health claims are made for this little parable.
At his family's insistence, a man is seeing a psychiatrist because the man insists to his family that he is dead (and thus refuses to participate in family life any more). After weeks of seeing the man and trying various forms of reality therapy and rational approaches, the psychiatrist comes up with a plan for his next session. As the session begins he asks the man to follow a rational line of thinking with him, and the man agrees. It goes something like this: So if you're dead, your organs have stopped functioning correct? The man thinks briefly, and says, yep, that would make sense. So if you're dead, then your heart isn't pumping blood any longer, correct? The man thinks briefly, and says, yep, that would make sense too. So it would then follow that dead men don't bleed, correct? The man considers this briefly, and says, yep, that too sounds right doc....so where are we going with this? At that point the psychiatrist leaps toward the man, quickly and deftly sticking him in the forearm with a needle (duly sterilized I am sure). As the puncture begins to bleed, the psychiatrist, with great satisfaction, says "There. That settles it, doesn't it?" The man responds "Well doc, I reckon you're right. It really does settle it. Dead men DO bleed after all." The end. And the end of my posting on this thread. Even those posts that sound "moderate" still want us to act on the basis of suppositions....non-provable suppositions...and that just isn't science in my world. It's a belief system. But......no hard feelings.
At his family's insistence, a man is seeing a psychiatrist because the man insists to his family that he is dead (and thus refuses to participate in family life any more). After weeks of seeing the man and trying various forms of reality therapy and rational approaches, the psychiatrist comes up with a plan for his next session. As the session begins he asks the man to follow a rational line of thinking with him, and the man agrees. It goes something like this: So if you're dead, your organs have stopped functioning correct? The man thinks briefly, and says, yep, that would make sense. So if you're dead, then your heart isn't pumping blood any longer, correct? The man thinks briefly, and says, yep, that would make sense too. So it would then follow that dead men don't bleed, correct? The man considers this briefly, and says, yep, that too sounds right doc....so where are we going with this? At that point the psychiatrist leaps toward the man, quickly and deftly sticking him in the forearm with a needle (duly sterilized I am sure). As the puncture begins to bleed, the psychiatrist, with great satisfaction, says "There. That settles it, doesn't it?" The man responds "Well doc, I reckon you're right. It really does settle it. Dead men DO bleed after all." The end. And the end of my posting on this thread. Even those posts that sound "moderate" still want us to act on the basis of suppositions....non-provable suppositions...and that just isn't science in my world. It's a belief system. But......no hard feelings.
Pilot
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Yes, yes, weather is not climate! Except when we have a heat wave and high temp records are broken, the media and the global warming "scientists"--more accurately called "advocates"-- attribute it to global warming. But if it's cold, it's irrelevant.
There is so much fraud, bad data, poor research, bad assumptions in the IPCC reports that the whole field of climate science is tainted. All the IPCC reports should be tossed and the process started all over again with an emphasis of integrity in the process.
And the "precautionary principal" that says we should take radical action to stop global warming in case they are right is just nonsense. All the action proposed is projected to reduce global warming by only 1/2 of one degree by the year 2100 at a huge cost to the economies of the world and the diversion of resources that could be used to reduce starvation, teach 3rd world kids to read and alleviate many problems in the world that we know how to solve. If the problem is so serious, we need to consider geoengineering, which can be done almost immediately at a much lower cost, although there are worldwide political implications.
I have no problem with trying to reduce all pollution (CO2 is not a pollutant, in spite of the EPA--CO2 levels have been much higher in the past with no harmful effects noted and no warming) using technology that is appropriate for the seriousness of the problem. I have no problem with alternative energy where it is competitive or even nearly competitive with conventional sources, especially if there are other positive benefits. But to disrupt the economy at huge expense for a problem that might happen, that might be offset a little bit at that huge expense makes no sense.
FWIW, I used to believe in the global warming idea until I ran across a critique of Gore's movie. Then I started looking into the matter with an open mind, at least at first, but the more I looked, the more I became convinced were were being had. I do have a science background. I don't classify myself as a denier, because neither I nor anyone else really knows what is happening, but I do call myself skeptic.
There is so much fraud, bad data, poor research, bad assumptions in the IPCC reports that the whole field of climate science is tainted. All the IPCC reports should be tossed and the process started all over again with an emphasis of integrity in the process.
And the "precautionary principal" that says we should take radical action to stop global warming in case they are right is just nonsense. All the action proposed is projected to reduce global warming by only 1/2 of one degree by the year 2100 at a huge cost to the economies of the world and the diversion of resources that could be used to reduce starvation, teach 3rd world kids to read and alleviate many problems in the world that we know how to solve. If the problem is so serious, we need to consider geoengineering, which can be done almost immediately at a much lower cost, although there are worldwide political implications.
I have no problem with trying to reduce all pollution (CO2 is not a pollutant, in spite of the EPA--CO2 levels have been much higher in the past with no harmful effects noted and no warming) using technology that is appropriate for the seriousness of the problem. I have no problem with alternative energy where it is competitive or even nearly competitive with conventional sources, especially if there are other positive benefits. But to disrupt the economy at huge expense for a problem that might happen, that might be offset a little bit at that huge expense makes no sense.
FWIW, I used to believe in the global warming idea until I ran across a critique of Gore's movie. Then I started looking into the matter with an open mind, at least at first, but the more I looked, the more I became convinced were were being had. I do have a science background. I don't classify myself as a denier, because neither I nor anyone else really knows what is happening, but I do call myself skeptic.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Here is my Global Warming prediction:
'100 Delicious Ways To Prepare Crow - for Dummies' will be at the top of the bestseller list for 20 weeks in the year 2050.
Dave.
'100 Delicious Ways To Prepare Crow - for Dummies' will be at the top of the bestseller list for 20 weeks in the year 2050.
Dave.
keegs
Veteran Member
Apparently News Corp has been taking advantage of the local weather to whip up its bottom line again...
mostly_gas
Super Member
Ever try driving or tractoring blindfolded? Without some idea how the climate really works how would you know anything about how effective the changes are that you are trying? Few if any of the alarmist predictions given during the last 30 years have come true. The earth has been colder and probably warmer. Most people realize that earth's normal activities dwarf man's contributions to the environment. The dire predictions are based nothing remotely resembling science. Some research on how the climate works would be nice.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Whether you believe in man made global warming, or the new term, climate change, the question that underlies all of it is what temperature do we want to make the constant, average temperature of the planet?
If we are to assume that with new laws, more taxes and a change in how we use the planets resources, will result in a cooler temperature for the planet, how much cooler do we want to make it?
If climate change is real, and if we can affect the planets temperature, why would we want to make the planet cooler? In what way is a cooler planet better then a warmer one? Why is a few degrees colder better then a few degrees warmer?
To most of us, this is rediculous, but for those who actually believe that the planet is warming, and it's because of human activity, what period in our planets history had the best temperature? Was it when Greenland was farmed? Wine Grapes grew in Great Britain, or was it when the glaciers were growing and the land bridge between Alaska and Siberia was open?
If you can say what the best temperature is, and explain why, I'd sure apreciate it. Right now, I think the planet would be better off if it was about five degrees warmer. We'd have more farmland, more growing days, less energy needed to warm homes and more rain water because of more evaporation.
Eddie
If we are to assume that with new laws, more taxes and a change in how we use the planets resources, will result in a cooler temperature for the planet, how much cooler do we want to make it?
If climate change is real, and if we can affect the planets temperature, why would we want to make the planet cooler? In what way is a cooler planet better then a warmer one? Why is a few degrees colder better then a few degrees warmer?
To most of us, this is rediculous, but for those who actually believe that the planet is warming, and it's because of human activity, what period in our planets history had the best temperature? Was it when Greenland was farmed? Wine Grapes grew in Great Britain, or was it when the glaciers were growing and the land bridge between Alaska and Siberia was open?
If you can say what the best temperature is, and explain why, I'd sure apreciate it. Right now, I think the planet would be better off if it was about five degrees warmer. We'd have more farmland, more growing days, less energy needed to warm homes and more rain water because of more evaporation.
Eddie
keegs
Veteran Member
Eddie, If you're interested in the impacts from climate change, why not look it up?
keegs
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Pilot
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Eddie,
Great post.
In the environmentalist circles, the answer is always that humans should not disturb the environment, so no change is good. Humans should just go away.
We know cooler can be bad--there was widespread famine in Europe during the little ice age. Even if the little ice age was confined to Europe as some claim, a cooler world overall would be disastrous.
But warmer can be bad for those in or near the tropics.
Warmer, cooler or no change, some people in some parts of the world will have a tougher time because of the climate. Who has the right to decide?
Great post.
In the environmentalist circles, the answer is always that humans should not disturb the environment, so no change is good. Humans should just go away.
We know cooler can be bad--there was widespread famine in Europe during the little ice age. Even if the little ice age was confined to Europe as some claim, a cooler world overall would be disastrous.
But warmer can be bad for those in or near the tropics.
Warmer, cooler or no change, some people in some parts of the world will have a tougher time because of the climate. Who has the right to decide?
boatyard
Silver Member
Just remember gentleman, arguing with idiots makes you an idiot. You know who you are.
Boatyard
Boatyard
IH3444
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Glen Beck said it first.
texbaylea
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I have a couple of things to say:
What government program exists that did not deliver less than promised and cost more (many times more) than projected
Government never keeps its promises:
I worked under social security many years before I joined the Federal Civil Service. Supposedly I was "permanently insured". When I retired from NASA the system withheld 60% from my social security because I was a dreaded "double dipper". It didn't matter that under the Carter administration we received one half the COLAs of everyone else but also our salaries were substantially less than the contractor employees working with us. Had I been working for a contractor I would have had a better salary and received my full social security.
The taxing of social security comes under the same heading.
The same with our treatment of the veterans.
Rant over
Vernon
What government program exists that did not deliver less than promised and cost more (many times more) than projected
Government never keeps its promises:
I worked under social security many years before I joined the Federal Civil Service. Supposedly I was "permanently insured". When I retired from NASA the system withheld 60% from my social security because I was a dreaded "double dipper". It didn't matter that under the Carter administration we received one half the COLAs of everyone else but also our salaries were substantially less than the contractor employees working with us. Had I been working for a contractor I would have had a better salary and received my full social security.
The taxing of social security comes under the same heading.
The same with our treatment of the veterans.
Rant over
Vernon
Pilot
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I got the same ripoff, $300 a month off the top of my SS amount.
And if I wanted credit for my military time in my civil service retirement, I had to pay a couple thousand to make up for what I would have put into the system if the military had been paying into SS--even though we were supposed to get SS credit for our military time without paying in. That was the promise when we went in.
Also got ripped off on military health care: When I went in back in '66 they said if I retired from the military, my dependents & I would get free health care for life. Well, that changed. Wasn't bad from ages 60-65, when it cost $456 a year for my wife and myself, a good deal, actually and I can already hear many people scream. But at 65, I went on Medicare and pay the same as everyone else. So much for free health care for life.
For congress, a promise lasts only as long as they choose to let it last.
In spite of the government ripoffs, I wouldn't change my military time for anything. But I never saw combat; if I had, my views might be different.
And if I wanted credit for my military time in my civil service retirement, I had to pay a couple thousand to make up for what I would have put into the system if the military had been paying into SS--even though we were supposed to get SS credit for our military time without paying in. That was the promise when we went in.
Also got ripped off on military health care: When I went in back in '66 they said if I retired from the military, my dependents & I would get free health care for life. Well, that changed. Wasn't bad from ages 60-65, when it cost $456 a year for my wife and myself, a good deal, actually and I can already hear many people scream. But at 65, I went on Medicare and pay the same as everyone else. So much for free health care for life.
For congress, a promise lasts only as long as they choose to let it last.
In spite of the government ripoffs, I wouldn't change my military time for anything. But I never saw combat; if I had, my views might be different.
Bird
Rest in Peace
I'm sure I didn't pay in as much as you guys did, but yep, I also would have been one of those "double dippers" except the amount of social security I would have gotten was so small that I get NO social security at all.
keegs
Veteran Member
help me out here....don't federal government retirees receive a pension?
dave1949
Super Star Member
It's complicated. People do get hosed in many cases. SS benefits are accumulated based on quarters worked and income. Just because a person worked for the Federal gov't some of their working lifetime, doesn't/shouldn't change that.
Dave.
keegs
Veteran Member
I've never delved into federal employee pensions Dave, but considering something like a quarter of the workforce receives a defined benefit pension anymore, complaining about having one seems ....unusual....
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