Global Warming News

[Ken45101]

This happens allmost every year it's called the mid winter thaw. I hate seeing all the rain though, just imagine if it were snow By the end of the week they say the high temp willl be maybe 20F

I remember January days back in the 60's and 70's where it hit 68-69 degrees. Our high this month is 58.

You are right about the mid winter thaw, up in the Canadian Rockies they call it a Chinook, I remember it from a book written back in the 1940's.

 

[Pilot]

How soon we forget. Just last month, there were 877 new snowfall records set in the US. And that was just for one week, between the 20th and 27th. And for the week ending 12/13, there were 815 snowfall records.

In Feb. of 1978 we left Kalispell, MT, transferred to the Mt Hood NF east of Portland, OR. Our last morning in Montana was 6 below zero. Two or 3 weeks later we were bicycling in our shirtsleeves. No, global warming wasn't moving that fast and Oregon wasn't that much warmer--it was a typical warming that happens for a week or two, usually in Feb. A few days later we had snow at our house at 1,500 ft. elevation.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I agree - follow the money - and I predict the money is big oil. It is pointless to argue a person's belief - many believed the world was flat and the sun revolved around it - people with opposing views were put to death because of this belief. In the end I'll go with logic and science.

Loren

Sorry, but the skeptics were the one's that didn't believe that the world was flat, There was CONSENSUS that the world was flat. And we know that if there is consensus, then we must believe. I believe,I believe, I believe. There I feel better already.

 

[Loren49]

Nice sidestep - I was pointing out the difference between belief and science and where the real money is.

Also I remember over the past 40 years when I was the skeptic of the belief that we could continue our ever increasing use of fossil fuels without dealing with environmental and international problems.

Loren

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Nice sidestep - I was pointing out the difference between belief and science and where the real money is.

Also I remember over the past 40 years when I was the skeptic of the belief that we could continue our ever increasing use of fossil fuels without dealing with environmental and international problems.

Loren

Sidestep Eh, You should see me Tango!
And if you could tell me where "the Real Money "is ,I would really, really appreciate it.
I was going to invest in Carbon Credits, but I got burned.

 

[Loren49]

What part of Big Oil and associated industry (like our auto companies) is hard to understand. My hunch is that the dollars spent over the past few years on lobbyists by these industries compared to those favoring "Carbon Credits" would show this. I don't have the numbers which is why I said is was my hunch.
Obviously we have a difference in opinion.

Take care,
Loren

 

[20 20]

I remember January days back in the 60's and 70's where it hit 68-69 degrees. Our high this month is 58.

You are right about the mid winter thaw, up in the Canadian Rockies they call it a Chinook, I remember it from a book written back in the 1940's.

I remember many of mid winter thaws, but one stands out clear{to me} It was about 20yrs back{give or take} 3rd week in Jan. It hit 70+ had and out side fire and party.

 

[Ken45101]

What part of Big Oil and associated industry (like our auto companies) is hard to understand. My hunch is that the dollars spent over the past few years on lobbyists by these industries compared to those favoring "Carbon Credits" would show this. I don't have the numbers which is why I said is was my hunch.
Obviously we have a difference in opinion.

Take care,
Loren

As I said earlier, "Follow the money". If oil and coal was so successful with lobbying, we would not have this fiasco, would we? Carbon credits and trading them is somebody's scheme to make big, big money. Shipping our industries to China is going to make big, big money for someone while it further destroys the U.S. economy and workforce, while doing nothing to improve the environment.

China does not have the environmental controls the U.S. has. We can make a ton of steel here (or a kilowatt of electricity), or it can be done in China, with 3x or 4x or 10x the pollution. This whole scam is not about the environment, it's about shifting manufacturing and economic might from one side of the world to the other side where there are less (almost no) environmental controls.

As I said "follow the money". Somebody is getting rich off of this scam.

 

[keegs]

As I said earlier, "Follow the money". If oil and coal was so successful with lobbying, we would not have this fiasco, would we? Carbon credits and trading them is somebody's scheme to make big, big money. Shipping our industries to China is going to make big, big money for someone while it further destroys the U.S. economy and workforce, while doing nothing to improve the environment.

China does not have the environmental controls the U.S. has. We can make a ton of steel here (or a kilowatt of electricity), or it can be done in China, with 3x or 4x or 10x the pollution. This whole scam is not about the environment, it's about shifting manufacturing and economic might from one side of the world to the other side where there are less (almost no) environmental controls.

As I said "follow the money". Somebody is getting rich off of this scam.

This corellation between a responsible environmental policy and a healthy industrial economy is repeated ad nauseum on the right, almost without question.

But relative to the US, Germany has much higher energy costs and the world's second largest export economy, just behind China. I'd add also they have a healthcare mandate and much higher union participation rates.

Surely the situation must be more complicated than this often repeated characterization suggests.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

This corellation between a responsible environmental policy and a healthy industrial economy is repeated ad nauseum on the right, almost without question.

But relative to the US, Germany has much higher energy costs and the world's second largest export economy, just behind China. I'd add also they have a healthcare mandate and much higher union participation rates.

Surely the situation must be more complicated than this often repeated characterization suggests.

I think that most of the people who believe in AGW(man made global warming) are good people who really can't understand why anybody could be against clean water/air.
I also remember when I first heard about "Ecology" back in the late 60s and thinking to myself, what a great political issues, who could be against clean water/air.
No Brainer(I know that's what you call Conservatives)
But as somebody once said, The Devil is in the details.
As with the current Health care intiative,(over 2000 pages, that nobody has read) The REAL special interests work behind the scenes, getting what they want.
Any time I hear a politician using hard to quantify phrases like "Clean air, Middle Class, The Rich, Big Oil,
The little guy, The environment, I know that ,to paraphrase Sherlock holmes "The game is afoot"

 

[Loren49]

Ken,
It is interesting that you are trying to imply that the people concerned with the rational use of fossil fuels are part of a conspiracy to move manufacturing to China. It looks like a smokescreen to me. If a person's belief in something is strong enough - facts will not change anything. What has encouraged so many companies to move their operations out of the US? Is there a conspiracy to do this and who is behind it? Are you saying we should get rid of pollution controls?

FallbrockFarmer- I understand that the reason the health bill is 2000 pages is because they tried to work within the current health framework in the US - that is a for-profit model. A one-payer bill would be very short. Also there are obviously many who have read the bill and spent enormous amounts of time trying to compromise. I agree that the special interests (insurance co., drug co., etc) have done lots to this bill. If the other side had the influence there would be useful public option in the bill. The status quo has won again (my conclusion). Our health care system is broken.

Loren

 

[MikePA]

Our health care system is broken.

What's so broken about it that having the federal government nationalize it is the best fix?

 

[Ken45101]

Ken,
It is interesting that you are trying to imply that the people concerned with the rational use of fossil fuels are part of a conspiracy to move manufacturing to China. It looks like a smokescreen to me. If a person's belief in something is strong enough - facts will not change anything. What has encouraged so many companies to move their operations out of the US? Is there a conspiracy to do this and who is behind it? Are you saying we should get rid of pollution controls?

No. But I am saying that scams like Kyoto and Copenhagen will HARM the environment as they move production from regulated countries to unregulated countries. Which produces more pollution, a steel mill in the U.S., or one in China? If Kyoto/Copenhagen ever come to pass, it will create MORE pollution as it moves even more heavy industries to unregulated countries.

"What has encouraged companies to move operations out of the US?" Economics, including cheap global communications and transportation (and of course labor). Piling more expenses onto US companies while letting the Chinese continue to pollute will not improve the global environment, it wil just make the environment worse while also destroying the US economy even further.

Somebody will get rich off of this. No, it won't be Exxon or US Steel. But somebody will get rich.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Ken,
It is interesting that you are trying to imply that the people concerned with the rational use of fossil fuels are part of a conspiracy to move manufacturing to China. It looks like a smokescreen to me. If a person's belief in something is strong enough - facts will not change anything. What has encouraged so many companies to move their operations out of the US? Is there a conspiracy to do this and who is behind it? Are you saying we should get rid of pollution controls?

FallbrockFarmer- I understand that the reason the health bill is 2000 pages is because they tried to work within the current health framework in the US - that is a for-profit model. A one-payer bill would be very short. Also there are obviously many who have read the bill and spent enormous amounts of time trying to compromise. I agree that the special interests (insurance co., drug co., etc) have done lots to this bill. If the other side had the influence there would be useful public option in the bill. The status quo has won again (my conclusion). Our health care system is broken.

Loren

Yes, I agree a single payer bill could be very short.Lets see ,How about; from each according to his abilities and to each acording to their needs.
If our Health care system is broken, (another of those easy to say, hard to define words) why do people from other counties come here constantly to get care.(yea i know, off topic again).
Economics(The study of the allocation of scarce resources with alternative uses) Everybody would love to live at the beach , right? Or drive a Lexus/Mercedes? But not everyone can. So how do you allocate the scarce resource.
1. By Government fiat. This opens us to being manipulated by politicians who are susceptible to bribes(Campaign contributions), to allocate the resources.
2. By random chance.
3. By price.
I know it sounds harsh, but the only REALLY fair way is by price.
There is a great article on the BBC today that says the average NHS patient visit a clinic 2000 times during their lifetimes. Hey, if its "free" why not.
I will bet you that if they do pass the single payer, you will shortly see some sort of restriction of the amount of care that you get.
One of the things that I learned during the Clinton years was the word "parse". In other words, I'm lying but your going to have to work hard to figure it out.
All the politicians are talking about is access to health insurance. Not Care, insurance. I used to belong to an HMO, and I now know the difference.

 

[Loren49]

Ken,
I don't necessarily disagree with your feelings about Kyoto and Copenhagen but remember that the US did not participate in Kyoto (we withdrew) and clearly nothing concrete came out of Copenhagen. So it seems that they have had no effect on movement of manufacturing jobs. (Just saw a report on Haiti - clothes factory back in business is making clothes for Walmart, Kmart, etc - works are making $1.25/hr) That's one of the main reasons we're loosing jobs and manufacturing) Not an anti fossil fuel conspiracy. Who here could work for that and also who will by a US product is its considerably more expensive? I don't no the answer. I feel responsible use of the finite amount of fossil fuels and development of alternatives is a separate isssue.

Concerning healthcare:
I don't advocate a single payer - pay everything system. Nobody does that in the developed countries but almost all have something that is closer to our medicare program. It pays a set amount for many needs and many push preventative care. Most people have supplemental insurance to the level they desire or can afford. It is unheard of in those countries for a person to become ill, lose there insurance (because they lose their job) and then go bankrupt. Remember also that medicare covers people from 65 until they die. (clearly the most expensive period)

A little cost comparison:
Cost per capita:
US $7290
Canada $3895
France $3601
England $2992

With the French System we could possibly save 7290-3601=$3689 per person
Could we find a place to use over a TRILLION DOLLARS. Also each of the countries used have higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate.

Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).[20][21] The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." [20] while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.[22][23] More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year.[24]

Loren

 

[Loren49]

Sorry but I need to fix this spelling - I posted without reading!
Who here could work for that and also who will buy a US product if its considerably more expensive? I don't know the answer.

Loren

 

[MikePA]

All this is beside the point and irrelevant. It's not the federal government's job to run healthcare.

 

[Loren49]

Every other industrialized country feels different and are spending less with better results. But if you are happy with over spending by 1.5 trillion that's your right. I feel that basic health care should be a responsibility of government. I'm not convinced that we would be better off without medicare, medicade, and the variety of state programs that cover children of uninsured children. It wouldn't seem as irrelevant if you lost everything because of a family illness. A large number of people who were insured when they became ill still lose everything in this country. My opinion is that as the wealthiest country in the world we should not let this happen.

Loren

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Ken,
I don't necessarily disagree with your feelings about Kyoto and Copenhagen but remember that the US did not participate in Kyoto (we withdrew) and clearly nothing concrete came out of Copenhagen. So it seems that they have had no effect on movement of manufacturing jobs. (Just saw a report on Haiti - clothes factory back in business is making clothes for Walmart, Kmart, etc - works are making $1.25/hr) That's one of the main reasons we're loosing jobs and manufacturing) Not an anti fossil fuel conspiracy. Who here could work for that and also who will by a US product is its considerably more expensive? I don't no the answer. I feel responsible use of the finite amount of fossil fuels and development of alternatives is a separate isssue.

Concerning healthcare:
I don't advocate a single payer - pay everything system. Nobody does that in the developed countries but almost all have something that is closer to our medicare program. It pays a set amount for many needs and many push preventative care. Most people have supplemental insurance to the level they desire or can afford. It is unheard of in those countries for a person to become ill, lose there insurance (because they lose their job) and then go bankrupt. Remember also that medicare covers people from 65 until they die. (clearly the most expensive period)

A little cost comparison:
Cost per capita:
US $7290
Canada $3895
France $3601
England $2992

With the French System we could possibly save 7290-3601=$3689 per person
Could we find a place to use over a TRILLION DOLLARS. Also each of the countries used have higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate.

Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).[20][21] The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." [20] while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.[22][23] More broadly, the total number of people in the United States, whether insured or uninsured, who die because of lack of medical care was estimated in a 1997 analysis to be nearly 100,000 per year.[24]

Loren

Loren,
One sentence that stands out , I will paraphrase "It is unheard of in those countries to lose your health insurance"
You are absolutely 100% correct. But-------
Are you guaranteed health CARE. And the answer is NO.
If you want to see where will be heading if we go down the road of "Public Option" (sounds good doesn't, sort of like, Social Security) look at the NHS in Britain. Go on the BBC website and look at all the problems that people have getting good quality care.
And to bring it back to Global Warming, what the real aim is more government control of people.
And No, I don't see any Black Helicopters out my window, A few Cobra's going back to Pendleton, But no Black ones.