Global Warming News

[MikePA]

True about the unions, but you didn't answer the question about how do I know where/how my money will be spent?

You won't know where it will be spent, but you will know where it was spent, just like unions. Additionally, corporations still cannot give to candidates or their campaigns, while unions can, so it's still not a level playing field.

 

[Ken45101]

Loren,

the corporate dollars were getting placed one way or the other. Now it might be just a bit more obvious? Naw, probably not

 

[MikePA]

Loren,

the corporate dollars were getting placed one way or the other. Now it might be just a bit more obvious? Naw, probably not

I am sure corporations will be held to the same reporting standards as unions.

 

[IH3444]

Gosh, we can beat up on corporations 24/7. How about all the people major ones employe? Jeepers! The personal taxes the workers pay is huge. The companies that have remained in America are starting to feel as if they are under seige. Many are planning to, or already have moved overseas. Where's the logic in continueing to "beat them up". With higher taxes, more regulations, compliance with labor unions. No wonder they decide to leave. We are decimating our businesses, and at the same time the administration is crying about not enough jobs. I guess not, they have been run out of the country. Yes there is cheaper labor, but that's not the entire driving forces. Owners of small business, whom also are usually encorporated have just about had it. Look at the mass exodus from California of business to Arizona. And Arnold is blabbing about the new green regulations he is imposing. On business, and new home construction. I mean they are putting catalytic converters on lawnmowers. LOL China, and India are laughing at us. We are destroying our business base. Don't fool yourself. Fully expect the unemployement to remain high, and stay high. Like Europe has been for decades. China is spooling up once again, and soon will overtake us in production. We need leaders to address this paradigm shift, and come up with workable solutions, not blameing corporations. So what CEOs make millions? Some are justified, some we can bark about. Some CEOs have run their company into the ground, some are doing a very good job. Bitter people gripe about how well others are doing, while they aren't. It's called "The self poisoned mind of resentment. Nietzche wrote about it. For Nietzsche, the repressed emotion of ressentiment leads at length to an entire falsified worldview, a whole revalued code of values, a complete morality based upon sour grapes, vindictiveness, delusions of grandeur and an embittered sense of helpless inferiority. The envied enemy is hated for his superior virtues, which are transformed by the alchemy of ressentiment into objects of loathing. The major virtues being major corporations employe vast numbers of people, donate to large amounts of worthy causes, support major rescue effords such as helping Haiti now. Placing blame on corporations is shameful. Without the vast wealth they have helped to create for America, we couldn't offer the help we have to the rest of the world, or help defeat some of the world's most horrible leaders. Creating wealth is good. And don't get into the 3rd world tennis shoe companies, only paying the workers $1.25 hour. Before the tennis shoe job, they had no money. $12 a day is big money in some places in this world.

 

[dave1949]

You won't know where it will be spent, but you will know where it was spent, just like unions. Additionally, corporations still cannot give to candidates or their campaigns, while unions can, so it's still not a level playing field.

I am thinking it would be an improvement to keep both of them out of the arena. Neither corps or unions have all good or all bad history. On the whole I would rate corps 'badder'. Maybe the unions would be as bad if they had more to be bad with

For this issue, they could both let their actions/products do their talking for them, not use member's or customer's money to finance their causes.
Dave.

 

[MikePA]

I am thinking it would be an improvement to keep both of them out of the arena.

While I appreciate the sentiment, free speech is free speech. I don't want the federal government, via the FEC or legislation, determining this.

 

[westcliffe01]

For the record, I have never been a union member. Also for the record, having worked in automotive since 92, I can report that I have never been paid for a single hour of overtime, ever. I have been pressurized by promises made by others to customers to work overtime, weekends and through vacation periods and then forfeited my vacation time since the company policy is that vacation cannot be accrued from year to year, period, regardless of the situation. I would hazard a guess that non union workers frequently work 13-14 month years (in hours) without (extra) pay, in a system of exploitation that further undermines the middle class and goes largely unreported.

The only choice I have is with my feet. Don't like it, walk. Problem is that I have worked for so many companies meanwhile on 3 different continents that I have come to the conclusion that they all try to mirror the same bad behavior, so that if you walk, you will find the same pressures everywhere else. Frankly I think a lot of what is done is illegal, and even if it isn't illegal, it is immoral, unethical and unprofessional. In a recent staff meeting, an employee posed a direct question to our HR director, who was attending the meeting. The conversation went as follows: "Well, we all know that the company doesn't pay overtime, yet we are expected to work weekends due to the urgency of needing to complete product testing that runs 24/7. So, given that we are not being paid, and that some employees commute 70 miles to work 1 way and that weekend commuting is not "in the budget", would the company be prepared to cover the cost of our commuting for the free labor we provide, since we will otherwise be making a financial loss and spending valuable time away from our families ?" The HR director replied "No, we do not pay salaried employees overtime, and we will certainly not begin paying for weekend commuting". End of chapter.

It is no different to the illegal immigration problem that the public wants to blame on the immigrants, when in fact there are business people who are specifically looking for those workers, since they know that they can be paid below minimum wage and thereby make a bigger profit than employing Americans. Strange how there is no discussion in the media about this aspect of the problem... Take away the carrot (us $) and the flow of immigrants will stop too. But to do that one would have to put businessmen in jail and perhaps those businessmen are in cahoots with the local sheriff and senator who turn a blind eye to the situation.

It seems that in Europe control is tighter and with their social system the government has an incentive to prevent worker exploitation (excessive overtime) since that contributes to unemployment. I found that out when I had a crisis after starting a job in Germany right before Xmas in 2000 and I got my boss in a lot of red tape because of the overtime I worked and the vacation I did not take. (We were required to be "on the clock" so it was found in an audit).

 

[dave1949]

While I appreciate the sentiment, free speech is free speech. I don't want the federal government, via the FEC or legislation, determining this.

I hear ya. The gov't can't be the answer to everything.

The problem is, if I ask you who is speaking, who will you point to? And if I ask you with whose money did they speak, who will you point to? I have a problem with that.

Corps, unions and PACs of all flavors already have plenty of influence in congress, to give any of them even more is to further distort and weaken the votes of the general public, who are after all, really people. The ones somebody had in mind with the 'one man, one vote' concept.

I believe this happens, the distortion and weakening, because very few political/issue ads present a balanced or even factual picture. It is difficult enough for most people to be informed about issues, first we have to sort through the lies.

For a couple million dollars, it's possible to hire some very slick people to produce an ad that can be factually full of BS, or misleading at best, to promote a particular point of view. They are good at it, we have to give them credit. People are very susceptable to it, it has become quite a science.

The cost of this is minimal in a corp/union/PAC budget but is way out of relation to what a typical individual can afford to do.

I would be happy to say spend all you want telling the absolute truth - if you are willing to go to jail for telling lies and half-truths. But how this could be accomplished or at what cost? It probably can't. So, the logical thing to do is to tell all of them to shut up.

What we have arrived at is a situation where all it takes is enough money to lie your a** off without consequence. That's maybe nothing new, but the internet and TV surely get to more people in an instant than the old yellow journalism newspapers ever did in a month and the content can be highly sophisticated and very persuasive.

I don't think we want to make our vote choices for those who could hire the best talent on Madison Ave., or on who lied most convincingly. How could that be the best thing for our country?

For me its a conundrum.
Dave.

 

[keegs]

For the record, I have never been a union member. Also for the record, having worked in automotive since 92, I can report that I have never been paid for a single hour of overtime, ever. I have been pressurized by promises made by others to customers to work overtime, weekends and through vacation periods and then forfeited my vacation time since the company policy is that vacation cannot be accrued from year to year, period, regardless of the situation. I would hazard a guess that non union workers frequently work 13-14 month years (in hours) without (extra) pay, in a system of exploitation that further undermines the middle class and goes largely unreported.

The only choice I have is with my feet. Don't like it, walk. Problem is that I have worked for so many companies meanwhile on 3 different continents that I have come to the conclusion that they all try to mirror the same bad behavior, so that if you walk, you will find the same pressures everywhere else. Frankly I think a lot of what is done is illegal, and even if it isn't illegal, it is immoral, unethical and unprofessional. In a recent staff meeting, an employee posed a direct question to our HR director, who was attending the meeting. The conversation went as follows: "Well, we all know that the company doesn't pay overtime, yet we are expected to work weekends due to the urgency of needing to complete product testing that runs 24/7. So, given that we are not being paid, and that some employees commute 70 miles to work 1 way and that weekend commuting is not "in the budget", would the company be prepared to cover the cost of our commuting for the free labor we provide, since we will otherwise be making a financial loss and spending valuable time away from our families ?" The HR director replied "No, we do not pay salaried employees overtime, and we will certainly not begin paying for weekend commuting". End of chapter.

It is no different to the illegal immigration problem that the public wants to blame on the immigrants, when in fact there are business people who are specifically looking for those workers, since they know that they can be paid below minimum wage and thereby make a bigger profit than employing Americans. Strange how there is no discussion in the media about this aspect of the problem... Take away the carrot (us $) and the flow of immigrants will stop too. But to do that one would have to put businessmen in jail and perhaps those businessmen are in cahoots with the local sheriff and senator who turn a blind eye to the situation.

It seems that in Europe control is tighter and with their social system the government has an incentive to prevent worker exploitation (excessive overtime) since that contributes to unemployment. I found that out when I had a crisis after starting a job in Germany right before Xmas in 2000 and I got my boss in a lot of red tape because of the overtime I worked and the vacation I did not take. (We were required to be "on the clock" so it was found in an audit).

Check the Gini index. Despite enormous increases in productivity, the American worker has been losing ground on income distribution since the 1980's. And Germany, with all it social programs has a larger export economy than we do.

It seems my generaltion is determined to dismantle everything my father's generation worked so hard for. Oh well...

 

[keegs]

Loren,

the corporate dollars were getting placed one way or the other. Now it might be just a bit more obvious? Naw, probably not

I can't think of anything corporations and special interests need more than added influence on our politicians and system of government.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

For the record, I have never been a union member. Also for the record, having worked in automotive since 92, I can report that I have never been paid for a single hour of overtime, ever. I have been pressurized by promises made by others to customers to work overtime, weekends and through vacation periods and then forfeited my vacation time since the company policy is that vacation cannot be accrued from year to year, period, regardless of the situation. I would hazard a guess that non union workers frequently work 13-14 month years (in hours) without (extra) pay, in a system of exploitation that further undermines the middle class and goes largely unreported.

The only choice I have is with my feet. Don't like it, walk. Problem is that I have worked for so many companies meanwhile on 3 different continents that I have come to the conclusion that they all try to mirror the same bad behavior, so that if you walk, you will find the same pressures everywhere else. Frankly I think a lot of what is done is illegal, and even if it isn't illegal, it is immoral, unethical and unprofessional. In a recent staff meeting, an employee posed a direct question to our HR director, who was attending the meeting. The conversation went as follows: "Well, we all know that the company doesn't pay overtime, yet we are expected to work weekends due to the urgency of needing to complete product testing that runs 24/7. So, given that we are not being paid, and that some employees commute 70 miles to work 1 way and that weekend commuting is not "in the budget", would the company be prepared to cover the cost of our commuting for the free labor we provide, since we will otherwise be making a financial loss and spending valuable time away from our families ?" The HR director replied "No, we do not pay salaried employees overtime, and we will certainly not begin paying for weekend commuting". End of chapter.

It is no different to the illegal immigration problem that the public wants to blame on the immigrants, when in fact there are business people who are specifically looking for those workers, since they know that they can be paid below minimum wage and thereby make a bigger profit than employing Americans. Strange how there is no discussion in the media about this aspect of the problem... Take away the carrot (us $) and the flow of immigrants will stop too. But to do that one would have to put businessmen in jail and perhaps those businessmen are in cahoots with the local sheriff and senator who turn a blind eye to the situation.

It seems that in Europe control is tighter and with their social system the government has an incentive to prevent worker exploitation (excessive overtime) since that contributes to unemployment. I found that out when I had a crisis after starting a job in Germany right before Xmas in 2000 and I got my boss in a lot of red tape because of the overtime I worked and the vacation I did not take. (We were required to be "on the clock" so it was found in an audit).

Wow, Glad nothing was said while I was out working on the Iseki(HEHE).
Loren,
I come from a union family, my father was a union local president, and I have belonged to 3-4 different trade unions. So I don't think you can call me a union basher, but what I will say is that 1. Unions have changed since I was a member(70s-80s)I really don't think most of them represent there membership effectively, and I think that focus has changed. One example, Back in the day, you never would have heard any union official calling for representation of illegal immigrants(sorry if I'm not using the correct PC term, but it is a legal description)How is it a union can call for rights for people that are in effect driving down the cost of labor? Beats me.
2. While most trade and manufacturing unions have had shrinking membership over the last two decades, guess which sector has seen a vast increase in its rolls.
Right, Government workers. Here in California a firefighter can retire on just about full pay at the age of 50! Show me where that can be matched in the private sector.
And when the Prison guards made a huge donation (I think it was something in the area of $25Mil) to the then Governor Gray Davis, Well Lo and behold they got something like a 40% pay increase.
As to business hiring illegals ,yes we can agree that is wrong and should be stopped, but who really wants the illegals in this country(Hint: They run for Office).
Yes Germany has a virtual workers paradise, but then they also have something like 20-25% unemployment.
Hope everybody has a good night, I'm goin for pizza and beer!

 

[Dennisfly]

keegs quote, "It seems my generaltion is determined to dismantle everything my father's generation worked so hard for. Oh well..."

It is part of my generation, but the next generation even more so. Do we not learn from history? Germany in the 1930's comes to mind!

Not that I want it to happen, but I can't believe this hasn't been terminated for being too political.

 

[charlz]

For a couple million dollars, it's possible to hire some very slick people to produce an ad that can be factually full of BS, or misleading at best, to promote a particular point of view. They are good at it, we have to give them credit. People are very susceptable to it, it has become quite a science.

Yeah, they are called 'Climatologists'

 

[westcliffe01]

I think it has been a pretty civil discussion so far, despite the potentially opposing views. Maybe we are civilized after all ??

Regarding Germany, I would not necessarily call the place paradise. And while I have not kept up with statistics, unemployment was at 9% in 2003. This link says that it was 7.8% in 2008 so there seems a big gap to get that up to 20%. Some of the problems Germany faces are as follows:

1. VERY flat pay scale. Perhaps only a 50% difference in pay from operator to manager level, covering everything in between (technician, engineer, PHD engineer etc). Sales of course has a totally different pay structure with large bonuses if you exceed targets.
2. Free education, which I think is a good thing, but then one has the "perpetual student syndrome" where many people have not yet worked before they get to their 30's. Since people live into their 80's and 90's, the possibility that my generation will retire before they are 70 is becoming increasingly remote.
3. Due to the social "safety net" there are many people who are not in the least way motivated to even get out of bed in the morning to either go to work, or study. While I lived there, reporters made documentaries of the lavish lifestyles lived by some on the dole, including some not even living in Germany. One guy was living in the Caribbean on a yacht, getting a check in the mail every month. This is something that the government is investigating, since the standard of living for those out of work is quite high and thus expensive socially. At the same time, people cannot simply be evicted onto the street, since it is not long before they turn up as indigents in a different part of the social network. So it appears that the strategy is that if it looks like you are not attempting to become gainfully employed, to continue receiving payments involves a series of "counseling" which would be considered "very tough direct confrontational interviews" of the kind that Americans prefer not to be known for.
4. German engineering has thrived in a business climate where discussion, criticism and dissent are considered normal and good and "providing balance". Unfortunately, it appears that American style "consensus building" has been taking over, which is nothing more than the suppression of criticism and dissent. This style of management may be fine for some risk taking under ideal conditions, but it can also lead to catastrophic mistakes as was seen in the shuttle O ring disaster and the recent mortgage scandals that led to the economic crisis.

 

[EddieWalker]

Just another tidbit relating to the credibility of the UN and global warming. hahaha

Printer Friendly

The Keystone Cops wouldn't be this stupid.

Eddie

 

[keegs]

Yes Germany has a virtual workers paradise, but then they also have something like 20-25% unemployment.

Your're off by a factor of 3.

I'll add also the Germans have double the union participation rate of the US.

 

[keegs]

I think it has been a pretty civil discussion so far, despite the potentially opposing views. Maybe we are civilized after all ??

I was amazed that at one point in one of these threads the administrator was censoring the discussion, actually editing political discourse among a group of adult participants.

I understand that some or perhaps many get uneasy with politics. They should start a political forum so that folks who don't care to engage and those who do both have a place to go.

 

[keegs]

While I appreciate the sentiment, free speech is free speech. I don't want the federal government, via the FEC or legislation, determining this.

Corporations and that includes foreign corporations, are not people. They don't vote. They have however, plenty of influence on our system of government.

The ruling affects state as well as federal election laws. And it was legislation passed over the course of 100 years that created those laws not the FEC.

So much for judicial restraint and not legislating from the bench....

 

[Loren49]

Looks like the discussion went on while I got a good night's sleep.

A couple of points:

I didn't defend unions in any earlier posts. But FYI I was a union member for 20 of my nearly 40 years of working. Unions have their issues (some too powerful and greedy) but the greed of owners and mistreatment of works is obvious to those who look at our history. This is why works fought and at times died for the right to organize.

I am just as skeptical with the union's new rights as I am with corporation's. I am not one bit ashamed of criticizing Corporate Greed. The ratio of CEO pay in the US is way out of line compared to many of the overseas companies out competing us. Much damage to corporations has been done and many jobs have been lost so that the CEO (and other top management) can reach a short term goal and get higher bonuses. It is not anti-American to criticize this behavior.

Individuals are limited in the amount they can donate to a candidate whether they own stock or not or belong to a union. We all have the same level of free speech. Why should their money through unions and corporations have unlimited access. (which makes it much more likely that their free speech is heard) Also I'm confident that the money available to corporations is many times that available to unions and therefore corporate influence will be much greater.

Concerning Global Warming - A numerical error (ie 2350 to 2035) and the resulting very questionable statements in a 1000 page report does not nullify many years of greenhouse gas science. You can restate things as many times as you like but it doesn't change the science. Its fine to disagree with and find errors in conclusions but I'm not sure we should throw the pot of soup away because we found a fly in it.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

Here is part of a 2008 report concerning CEO compensation


"TOKYO -- U.S. financial institutions are criticized for giving executives big compensation packages. But their Japanese counterparts face the opposite challenge: As they step up acquisitions abroad and hire more executives from U.S. and European firms, they often must boost their pay.

The gap is huge, as Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group can attest. Japan's biggest bank by market capitalization, paid a total of $8.1 million for 14 top executives in the fiscal year ended March 31, according to a regulatory filing.

But at Morgan Stanley, in which MUFG acquired a 21% stake in September, John Mack, the chief executive, alone took home five times that amount -- $41.4 million -- in the year ended Nov. 30, 2006. His pay was cut to $1.6 million last year after the company posted a quarterly loss and he declined a bonus.

On average, chief executives at Japanese companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues are paid about $1.3 million a year, including bonuses and stock-option grants, according to Towers Perrin, a consulting firm, based on data gathered between 2004 and 2006. But chiefs in the U.S. are paid about $12 million, and chiefs in Europe are paid $6 million."

Loren