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/ Global Warming News #362  
In the end, the REAL problem is right in the mirror. POPULATION GROWTH. More people, who need more resources, simply to survive, let alone prosper.

Those of you who mention Greenland being farmed should consider how small the worlds population was back then, and what an abundance of water land and vegetation they had available.

The problem is that fossil fuel has permitted the growth of populations for nearly the last century and that the rate of growth is not sustainable either in fuel reserves, nor in the other resources needed for a larger future population to have quality of life.

If one wants a perspective on what life in the future will look like, one only has to look at Bombay or Calcutta to see what things will come to when religion and poverty prevent any rational form of population control and where it is up to nature to eliminate the weakest and poorest.

I grew up in South Africa, where the birth rate resulted in the DOUBLING of the size of the population every *edit* 20 years. That pace never slowed one bit, until the aids epidemic, and then only because of a culture where certain death was apparently not a sufficient motivation to change the behavior of the male of the species. Eastern countries have a different set of values and with their gigantic populations we are sure to be facing trouble when the last of the glaciers that feed their rivers has melted and the great thirst sets in.

One has every right to be skeptical of politicians and their schemes, but at the same time, fair comparisons need to be made regarding the true cost of securing current energy supplies. The cost of a gal of gas or diesel is not just the pump price, but also the cost of securing the sources of that fuel. To imagine that in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it is not possible to repair, rebuild or even maintain primary road, rail and airport infrastructure, let alone even consider expansion is mindboggling. And the reason for that is primarily military spending.

If the population seriously reduced their fuel consumption by not driving one to a truck or suv 7 days a week (and car companies actually sold vehicles here that get 70mpg like they do in europe), and spent some time insulating their homes to reduce heating and air conditioning cost. And corporations paid more than lip service to reducing energy consumption and constructed more efficient buildings, these things all add up.

My employer probably heats and cools 1000sq ft of floor space with 20-30ft ceilings for every employee (300 employees at 1 facility). All exterior walls are uninsulated cinder block in a 7000+ heating degree day climate. The building is fed via a 3" diameter high pressure natural gas main. Can you imagine what a financial waste it is continuing this practice, compared to simply building an efficient building in the first place, making the best use of available solar for natural light and heat. One thing I can tell you is that you don't have to be a genius to understand which building will be more pleasant to work in. Yet no-one seems to think that there is anything the slightest bit wrong with this state of affairs. Its the way things have been done for decades. Sounds just like the way GM and Chrysler would have thought of things.

The truth is that conservation is a fundamentally sensible thing to do, yet apparently our "conservative" leaders (or any of them for that matter) are not really trying to do anything about it. The liberals want to force the issue through a tax, which is painfull and is bound to make several of them with the right connections a heap of money. Unfortunately, it may take a tax to make people and corporations change their habits. After a short romance, the public get to vote in the "other guys", who could repeal the tax, but only if they could wean themselves of all that extra dough instead of spending it on their defense contractor buddies.

Whichever way, the interstates apparently will never get fixed until the day arrives that we plow up the asphalt and go back to dirt roads... don't laugh, I have lived it in colonial africa and we are headed the same way if something doesn't change. And all of that is assuming we aren't at war with china in ten years, by which time they will be exceeding all western countries industrial output combined and would have stockpiled $ and Euros to fund their expansion plan.
 
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/ Global Warming News #363  
In the end, the REAL problem is right in the mirror. POPULATION GROWTH. More people, who need more resources, simply to survive, let alone prosper.
.

That my friends is the real answer to any type of earthly global issue. Along with population{out of control} comes greed and stupidity also!
 
/ Global Warming News #364  
In the end, the REAL problem is right in the mirror. POPULATION GROWTH. More people, who need more resources, simply to survive, let alone prosper.

Those of you who mention Greenland being farmed should consider how small the worlds population was back then, and what an abundance of water land and vegetation they had available.

The problem is that fossil fuel has permitted the growth of populations for nearly the last century and that the rate of growth is not sustainable either in fuel reserves, nor in the other resources needed for a larger future population to have quality of life.

If one wants a perspective on what life in the future will look like, one only has to look at Bombay or Calcutta to see what things will come to when religion and poverty prevent any rational form of population control and where it is up to nature to eliminate the weakest and poorest.

I grew up in South Africa, where the birth rate resulted in the DOUBLING of the size of the population every *edit* 20 years. That pace never slowed one bit, until the aids epidemic, and then only because of a culture where certain death was apparently not a sufficient motivation to change the behavior of the male of the species. Eastern countries have a different set of values and with their gigantic populations we are sure to be facing trouble when the last of the glaciers that feed their rivers has melted and the great thirst sets in.

One has every right to be skeptical of politicians and their schemes, but at the same time, fair comparisons need to be made regarding the true cost of securing current energy supplies. The cost of a gal of gas or diesel is not just the pump price, but also the cost of securing the sources of that fuel. To imagine that in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it is not possible to repair, rebuild or even maintain primary road, rail and airport infrastructure, let alone even consider expansion is mindboggling. And the reason for that is primarily military spending.

If the population seriously reduced their fuel consumption by not driving one to a truck or suv 7 days a week (and car companies actually sold vehicles here that get 70mpg like they do in europe), and spent some time insulating their homes to reduce heating and air conditioning cost. And corporations paid more than lip service to reducing energy consumption and constructed more efficient buildings, these things all add up.

My employer probably heats and cools 1000sq ft of floor space with 20-30ft ceilings for every employee (300 employees at 1 facility). All exterior walls are uninsulated cinder block in a 7000+ heating degree day climate. The building is fed via a 3" diameter high pressure natural gas main. Can you imagine what a financial waste it is continuing this practice, compared to simply building an efficient building in the first place, making the best use of available solar for natural light and heat. One thing I can tell you is that you don't have to be a genius to understand which building will be more pleasant to work in. Yet no-one seems to think that there is anything the slightest bit wrong with this state of affairs. Its the way things have been done for decades. Sounds just like the way GM and Chrysler would have thought of things.

The truth is that conservation is a fundamentally sensible thing to do, yet apparently our "conservative" leaders (or any of them for that matter) are not really trying to do anything about it. The liberals want to force the issue through a tax, which is painfull and is bound to make several of them with the right connections a heap of money. Unfortunately, it may take a tax to make people and corporations change their habits. After a short romance, the public get to vote in the "other guys", who could repeal the tax, but only if they could wean themselves of all that extra dough instead of spending it on their defense contractor buddies.

Whichever way, the interstates apparently will never get fixed until the day arrives that we plow up the asphalt and go back to dirt roads... don't laugh, I have lived it in colonial africa and we are headed the same way if something doesn't change. And all of that is assuming we aren't at war with china in ten years, by which time they will be exceeding all western countries industrial output combined and would have stockpiled $ and Euros to fund their expansion plan.

1.When you mention "population control" , I assume that you are speaking of something along the lines of Planned Parenthood? If you are perhaps ,you are not aware that one of the founders of PP was Margaret Sanger,an advocate of Eugenics(the elimination of "inferior races" by abortion.
2 The use of fossil fuels has advanced mankind exponentially since its use became widespread(Think of all the interesting diseases that were prevalent when the horse was the main method of transport.
3. One doesn't have to travel to India to see what "progessive/socialist" models do to a society. Try Detroit.
I am having a hard time understanding your statement about having to " eliminate the weakest and poorest" Could you expand on that?
4 In Relation to Military spending, I am sure that coming from S. Africa you understand what it means to have a strong national defense, or perhaps that is why you are here.
5. If your employer is running such an inefficient business
why don't you make some suggestions as to how to improve,or alternatively, start a new business that is more efficient
6. Some define economics as "The study of the use of scarce resources, with alternative uses".
I would suggest the most efficient/conservative use of fossil fuels are determined by the free market, not command control forms of government. Your thoughts?
Looking forward to your reply.
 
/ Global Warming News #365  
I would suggest the most efficient/conservative use of fossil fuels are determined by the free market, not command control forms of government.

Amen! NOT that we have a free market today, there is plenty of government manipulation.
 
/ Global Warming News #366  
Well said Westcliffe01.

To 20_20's point, we tend to think in terms of how many people can we pack onto the earth rather than how many the resources can support. That's wrong thinking IMO.

To some extent we are victims of our own humanity and success as a species. Who doesn't think there is always room for one more at the dinner table, for example? But there are finite limits on the size of the table if we are to continue to enjoy life as we know it. If we are willing to live in the human equivalent of a rat warren and eat test tube food, well that's different of course, but not very appealing.
Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #367  
From Westcliffe01:
If one wants a perspective on what life in the future will look like, one only has to look at Bombay or Calcutta to see what things will come to when religion and poverty prevent any rational form of population control and where it is up to nature to eliminate the weakest and poorest.


The current situation in Haiti is what immediately comes to my mind. A country so poor and lacking in resources, a natural event (earthquake) is insurmountable without the rest of the world coming to the rescue. Without the relief efforts, there would be a much greater population reduction than has already occured.

The people who die in such a situation, that aren't immediate victims of falling buildings, do so primarily because of poverty and because there are so many dependent on very limited resources.
Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #368  
Well said Westcliffe01.

To 20_20's point, we tend to think in terms of how many people can we pack onto the earth rather than how many the resources can support. That's wrong thinking IMO.

To some extent we are victims of our own humanity and success as a species. Who doesn't think there is always room for one more at the dinner table, for example? But there are finite limits on the size of the table if we are to continue to enjoy life as we know it. If we are willing to live in the human equivalent of a rat warren and eat test tube food, well that's different of course, but not very appealing.
Dave.

One remembers the fifties when many pundits were saying that the world was going to shortly run out of food, and then came the "Green revolution".
Given the freedom to innovate and adapt, I think that the human species will always overcome any obstacles that come along, Isn't that what made America great?
 
/ Global Warming News #369  
From Westcliffe01:
If one wants a perspective on what life in the future will look like, one only has to look at Bombay or Calcutta to see what things will come to when religion and poverty prevent any rational form of population control and where it is up to nature to eliminate the weakest and poorest.


The current situation in Haiti is what immediately comes to my mind. A country so poor and lacking in resources, a natural event (earthquake) is insurmountable without the rest of the world coming to the rescue. Without the relief efforts, there would be a much greater population reduction than has already occured.

The people who die in such a situation, that aren't immediate victims of falling buildings, do so primarily because of poverty and because there are so many dependent on very limited resources.
Dave.

The question I think, becomes, why is Haiti so poor.
A small snapshot of Haiti, would look at why telephone rates in Haiti are amongst the highest in the world.
Could it be that the government is corrupt? Could it be that certain US politicians installed those in power?
Could it be that those same politicians benefit from those high telephone tariffs? Just asking.
 
/ Global Warming News #370  
I bought a couple hundred acre 'tree farm' from a family who have been harvesting trees off of the property every 40 years or so (in sections, so the harvest seems constant) for the last couple hundred years. They look at their tree farm just like you'd look at a cornfield. The only difference is that they are on 40 year cycles rather than annual. The funny thing is that they'd been contributing to all the tree-hugger causes! The reason? The fewer trees cut elsewhere the higher their lumber brought. LOL!!!
 
/ Global Warming News #371  
Well said Westcliffe01.

To 20_20's point, we tend to think in terms of how many people can we pack onto the earth rather than how many the resources can support. That's wrong thinking IMO.

Agreed ;) To add to your packing statement, we forget being over crowded tends to cause depression, illness, fighting and then war.

To some extent we are victims of our own humanity and success as a species. Who doesn't think there is always room for one more at the dinner table, for example? But there are finite limits on the size of the table if we are to continue to enjoy life as we know it. If we are willing to live in the human equivalent of a rat warren and eat test tube food, well that's different of course, but not very appealing.
Dave.

Exactly

Some one posted a while back that there is more food now then ever. My question is this real food or the crap we buy in the stores now? The food of today as been proven to cause many problems. Like it or not we are not Gods, we are animals and need only certain things to survive. The human race likes to "play" with stuff and feel it is immortal, I say good luck with that!!!

I've read that the cut off for the earths population is 12billion we are at 7 billion now. From the mid 80's till now we grew around 3 billion. It took millions of years to reach millions, but in less then 20yrs we grew by billions. I think most of us have seen what happens to a species when it grows out of control. Rats rabbits mice etc... populations can easily get out of control and they cause major distruction. I honestly believe we are seeing the begaining of this now with the human species. IMO I'd rather live in a place that is under control and can live within its environment, then one that has lost all control.
 
/ Global Warming News #373  
The funny thing is that they'd been contributing to all the tree-hugger causes! The reason? The fewer trees cut elsewhere the higher their lumber brought. LOL!!!

The love for money and power leads to coruption and in the end could be defeating ones original goal.
 
/ Global Warming News #374  
One remembers the fifties when many pundits were saying that the world was going to shortly run out of food, and then came the "Green revolution".
Given the freedom to innovate and adapt, I think that the human species will always overcome any obstacles that come along, Isn't that what made America great?

We are very good at innovation and adaptation. The problem is to be able to foresee the results. World population tripled from 1950 to now. Another tripling in half that time is easily possible - if humans chose to do so, we have the breeding numbers available to do it.

It's already apparent that wealthier countries aren't following that path, their native citizen birth rates (not counting immigrants) are already dipping below the number required to maintain a constant population at the current level. So, those countries are 'adapting' already to changed economic realities vs family size.

I don't want to confuse the issues by getting into America is great. It's a nice country, like many others. It happens to be 'our' country, so of course we like to stick up for it. That's human nature to protect and defend what is familiar and ours. If you strip away the rhetoric, that's pretty much what it comes down to.
Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #375  

I've been saying we are a cancer on the planet for years. If people can disengage from their "ME" world and take a minute to look at what the species as done, it's not a pretty picture. I'm not saying all humans are terrible monsters. This is why I mentioned the "ME" standard, everyday as a species we destroy the very thing that gives us life. Like I've said before how many of us can go down to the local river and take a drink?????? Believe it or not there was a time one could.
 
/ Global Warming News #376  
The question I think, becomes, why is Haiti so poor.
A small snapshot of Haiti, would look at why telephone rates in Haiti are amongst the highest in the world.
Could it be that the government is corrupt? Could it be that certain US politicians installed those in power?
Could it be that those same politicians benefit from those high telephone tariffs? Just asking.

Could it be that they have 9.7 million people packed into an area the size of Maryland? While Maryland itself only has about 5.6 million? "Resource contention" is what comes to my mind.
 
/ Global Warming News #377  
We are very good at innovation and adaptation. The problem is to be able to foresee the results. World population tripled from 1950 to now. Another tripling in half that time is easily possible - if humans chose to do so, we have the breeding numbers available to do it.

It's already apparent that wealthier countries aren't following that path, their native citizen birth rates (not counting immigrants) are already dipping below the number required to maintain a constant population at the current level. So, those countries are 'adapting' already to changed economic realities vs family size.

I don't want to confuse the issues by getting into America is great. It's a nice country, like many others. It happens to be 'our' country, so of course we like to stick up for it. That's human nature to protect and defend what is familiar and ours. If you strip away the rhetoric, that's pretty much what it comes down to.
Dave.

Wow,
I'm going to go next door to Camp Pendleton, and share your inspirational words with the Marines who shipping out to Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
/ Global Warming News #378  
I watched a program on TV one night about the explosive growth in China. About infastructure that they are building now. The comentator was stating that China ws building so much that in 40-50 years it would be unsubstainable to support. There are now more cars sold in China than the United States. With the corrosponding demand on oil resources. The chinese also want the American, or should I say the western standard of living. Can you blame them? Invaribly, the free market will dictate what autos we drive, and what size home we live in. Governed by the amount of energy we can afford to consume. It's just around the corner. I do appauld the chinese. They are working hard to secure their future by purchasing vast amounts of resources for future development. I'm sure they will start building nuclear power plants.
 
/ Global Warming News #379  
I've been saying we are a cancer on the planet for years. If people can disengage from their "ME" world and take a minute to look at what the species as done, it's not a pretty picture. I'm not saying all humans are terrible monsters. This is why I mentioned the "ME" standard, everyday as a species we destroy the very thing that gives us life. Like I've said before how many of us can go down to the local river and take a drink?????? Believe it or not there was a time one could.

Even More Wow!
We are a cancer on the planet!
Who knew!
 
/ Global Warming News #380  
Whichever way you cut it, continued expansion of the human population will likely result in our "natural extermination or natural population control" through pollution, disease, genetic defects, reduced life expectancy or all of the above. I'm not trying to suggest a solution to how population control is to work. The most successful model is when the population reacts to their changing circumstances by curtailing their birth rate voluntarily. Western Europe is a perfect example of this, but that is due to the fact that it is already a pretty crowded and polluted place.

A good example is what happened to elephant population since the trade in ivory and other elephant products was banned. In areas where the animals were protected from poaching, the population numbers rose until they destroyed their own habitat and the entire population began starving (low quality of life). Game park management were forced to do annual culls to reduce the population to the point where the survivors had sufficient resources to prosper and not further destroy the environment. Those legitimately protecting the species and managing the population at "sustainable" levels (at a substantial cost) are not permitted to use the animal products to finance their operations and thereby so dilute the black market trade that it would not be worthwhile for poachers to continue their activities. The flip side of the coin is that poachers have almost completely eliminated the populations in other areas inadequately protected due to financial reasons. The result of this mess is that the cost of entry into the protected sanctuaries can be $50-200/day, which means that the overwhelming majority of the world population will be denied access to see these magnificent beasts. Some would rightly say that this is an "elitist" system, started by the elitists who decided that they knew best how to protect the elephants.

Sorry, but I have personally been to India and can assure you that no US city, no matter how squalid, even begins to compare to the indian slums. I live only an hours drive from Detroit and avoid ANY city whenever I can.

I said that NATURE would eliminate the weakest and poorest. It is the way it is. Money can buy better healthcare, a less polluted location where you may be able to drink the well water, or put you in a place where your life is less likely to be ended in a random violent crime.

We tend to live by the law of averages. Provided my employer is not substantially more wasteful that their competitors, they have a level playing field. But then an upset occurs when someone comes in from the outside (like the Japanese), who are less wasteful and suddenly the playing field is less level that before. This has been happening since the 70's and has eroded the manufacturing base before the concept of globalization (corporationism) even got started. The Japanese were taught lean manufacturing by americans, whose "efficient" ideas had been rejected by the entrenched back home.

In my case, every attempt at introducing efficiency from a transportation (pool vehicle) to building concepts has been rejected in favor of the "least capital cost" concepts (ignoring differences in operational cost) to simply maintaining the status quo with regard to vehicle size, even though records show that most trips wth company vehicles have only 1 or 2 people per vehicle. This is the difference between perhaps 22mpg with the vehicles they lease now vs 40mpg with vehicles they could be purchasing. I also stated that since people in the midwest have typically grown up in truck and later SUV owning families, they lack experience in driving smaller vehicles, which they regard as "sissy" vehicles that they would not like to be seen in. By forcing this issue at a corporate level, many people may in fact discover that there is nothing inherently wrong with smaller vehicles and that the pain at the pump is substantially less. And driving many of these vehicles is plain FUN, with light weight, good acceleration, braking and handling. People can be very opiniated without being really informed and it can take exceptional circumstances to create a breakthrough. At the end, when you go home it is still your choice what you want to have in the driveway.



1.When you mention "population control" , I assume that you are speaking of something along the lines of Planned Parenthood? If you are perhaps ,you are not aware that one of the founders of PP was Margaret Sanger,an advocate of Eugenics(the elimination of "inferior races" by abortion.
2 The use of fossil fuels has advanced mankind exponentially since its use became widespread(Think of all the interesting diseases that were prevalent when the horse was the main method of transport.
3. One doesn't have to travel to India to see what "progessive/socialist" models do to a society. Try Detroit.
I am having a hard time understanding your statement about having to " eliminate the weakest and poorest" Could you expand on that?
4 In Relation to Military spending, I am sure that coming from S. Africa you understand what it means to have a strong national defense, or perhaps that is why you are here.
5. If your employer is running such an inefficient business
why don't you make some suggestions as to how to improve,or alternatively, start a new business that is more efficient
6. Some define economics as "The study of the use of scarce resources, with alternative uses".
I would suggest the most efficient/conservative use of fossil fuels are determined by the free market, not command control forms of government. Your thoughts?
Looking forward to your reply.
 
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