GFI Outlet wiring

[Alan L.]

I discovered a GFI outlet in the master bath in our new home would not work. Funny, because the green light was on but there was no power in the outlet itself.

I tried resetting the outlet and the reset button would not stay seated, thus the outlets remained in a tripped state, but the green light on. After several tries I managed to throw the circuit breaker back in the breaker box.

With the power off, I pull the cover off and checked voltage. If found that the top terminals had power but the bottom terminals had none. There were two whites & two blacks connected on the top (where the power was) and only one of each on the bottom.

Figuring it must be a bad outlet I drove 10 miles and picked up a new one, identical to the one in the wall. When I took a look at the wiring I discovered that it appeared to be wired wrong. The wires with power were connected to the "load" terminal, while the wire with no power were connected to the "line" terminal.

I carefully marked the wires connected to the "line" terminal so as not to get them mixed up. I then rewired the outlet, connected the wires with power to the "line" terminal and the wires with no power to the "load" terminals. Unfortunately at this point there was still no power in the outlet, and the green light was off. So I pulled it off and installed the new outlet the way the old one was wired with the same result - green light on, no power in the outlet.

I then decided to wire it the the way it should be wired, but this time I left off the wires with no power, so there is nothing connected to the "load" terminals. The outlet then worked, the green light is on, and the test and reset buttons work.

There are two things I noted besides the fact the outlet was apparently wired wrong:

1. The electrician left NO slack in the wires so it was very difficult to get the wires connected. In fact, to connect the load terminals I would have had to turn the outlet upside down!

2. There is at least one outlet nearby that runs off the hot terminal (so no protected by the GFI). This means there are two white wires and two black wires NOW on the line terminals (were originally on the load terminals) But one of the wires is a smaller guage than the other making it near impossible to get the screw clamped down on both wires. Once it tightens on the fat wire, the skinnier wire kept slipping out until I got a BIG screwdriver and put alot of force on it to compress the copper of the fatter wire.

Now, I know I have disconnected the wires that go downstream that are supposed to be protected. I'm sure these wires have never had any power, and this outlet has never been tried before today. But even with these wires disconnefted we can't find anything that doesn't work!

Is there any explanation for the way this thing was wired. I read somewhere that electricians sometimes wire these things backwards for a reason, but it wasn't working and now it is.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I am not good enough to tell you what is wrong over the internet but I will tell you this, some electricians do some stupid things and some just have brain cramps. Call up the guy who wired it and ask him to fix it.

As for the short wires, a lot of electricians do this trying to save a couple dollars in wire. Others do it just so they don't have as much wire in the box. I try to leave around 6" so the outlet can be pulled out from the wall a few inches.

Good luck

 

[billbill1]

Alan, I would check out the wiring in the "load" side of this, it appears from your explanation that there is something wrong there. If you leave it unhooked or bypass the GFI, it stays on. Are there only one set of wires going to it or does it branch to another circuit?

 

[SpringHollow]

Is the GFI tripping right away? - maybe there is a short downstream of the outlet you are installing.

You could try leaving those wires disconnected and install another outlet leaving it and the GFI dangling out of the box. Make sure not to touch any hot wires/connections when testing - you could play it safe and wrap the edges of the outlets in electrical tape. If it works properly, then there is a problem with the wiring downstream.

If it does not, then you are wiring it incorrectly.

Before even trying that, you could turn off the breaker and measure conductivity between the hot and ground and the neutral and ground of the downstream wires to see if you can measure a short.

At work about 15 years ago, I insisted on GFIs being installed in a large renovation we were having done. Everyone said no - problems with nuisance tripping. But I insisted and they were installed. When they turned on one of the circuits, the GFCI breaker tripped immediately. Kept tripping so they said they were right and were going to swap it out. I stopped them and started checking for shorts. Sure enough, a whole run of metal casework was live because an integral drying oven had a hot wire touching the casework. We did a test and installed a regular breaker. The short did not pull enough current to throw the breaker. If they had installed a regular breaker to begin with, it is possible the first person to touch the metal casework could have been injured or worse. My whole house is now GFCIed. If the combination arc/GFCI are reliable, I will switch over to them.

Ken

 

[ToadHill]

I'm not sure if this is normal but with my farm house if one GFI outlet trips, it shuts off all the GFI's in the house.

 

[SpringHollow]

That would imply that everything is run off of that one GFI - not a very good setup. Lights should not be on the same circuit as appliances, etc.

Do you ever trip due to overloading?

Ken

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I'm not sure if this is normal but with my farm house if one GFI outlet trips, it shuts off all the GFI's in the house.

Paul, this is normal as GFI's are designed to run in series so you also can get by with a normal outlet ran off the load side of a GFI and the normal outlet would be protected by the one GFI.

Just how many outlets did they run off the one GFI though?

 

[gordon21]

If I read your description right, the input side has 2 black wires. One is feeding the GFI and the other is now bypassing the GFI and heading elsewhere. The other outlets and lights are wired in parallel, not in series. A GFI only works and protects if everything is downstream from it. Both white and black wires must go through the GFI, and nothing going around. There should only be one white and one black on the input or line side. You MAY have multiple wires on the load side, since it is downstream from protection.

 

[ToadHill]

Robert: 6, one outside, 3 bathrooms, 2 in the kitchen.

 

[JB4310]

2. There is at least one outlet nearby that runs off the hot terminal (so no protected by the GFI). This means there are two white wires and two black wires NOW on the line terminals (were originally on the load terminals) But one of the wires is a smaller guage than the other making it near impossible to get the screw clamped down on both wires. Once it tightens on the fat wire, the skinnier wire kept slipping out until I got a BIG screwdriver and put alot of force on it to compress the copper of the fatter wire.

Now, I know I have disconnected the wires that go downstream that are supposed to be protected. I'm sure these wires have never had any power, and this outlet has never been tried before today. But even with these wires disconnefted we can't find anything that doesn't work!

Is there any explanation for the way this thing was wired. I read somewhere that electricians sometimes wire these things backwards for a reason, but it wasn't working and now it is.

I don't think electricians wire things backwards on purpose, but it does happen, I've seen electricians wire direct shorts, turn on the breaker and boom!, I've made mistakes, heck doctors amputate the wrong limbs.

Sounds like it was just a mistake, if that other outlet that's nearby which is not protected is actually in the bath room then connect it to the load side of the GFI, then it will be protected by gfci also, you say it's one of the wires off the hot terminal now, this is just a guess but probably the smaller wire, most likely a 14 GA.

That still leaves the mystery wire, could have been an extra not used for anything, was roughed in but plans changed, when electrician did the finish work he thought it was the line from circuit box and the other two were loads, just like you found it. It could be a feed for something else you have not discovered yet not working and belong on the load side

 

[JB4310]

I'm not sure if this is normal but with my farm house if one GFI outlet trips, it shuts off all the GFI's in the house.

Do you mean it shuts off ALL other regular outlets or ALL gfi outlets, either way is odd, one gfi can control many other outlets, as long as it's the first device, no need to have more than one gfi on one circuit, so I'm sure you have more than one circuit in the house, but if one fault detection in one circuit was tripping the other circuits GFI's that would not be normal, not sure but need more info.

 

[Alan L.]

Thanks for all the responses. The idea that there could be a problem downstream makes sense, I will check it when I get a chance, at least see if there is a short.

I believe this was the intention of the electrician: A black and white from the breaker box to power the GFI outlet, and a second black and white pair on the same terminals, connected to UNprotected outlet(s) downstream. The other side of the wall is our master closet and its outlet is apparently the unprotected one.

Then, it appears there are supposed to be some downstream outlets that were supposed to be protected, but I can't find any that don't work. There are outlets above the double vanity, one with GFI which, when tripped makes the other one dead. We found an outlet we were supposed to have in the crapper room (why, I'm not sure), but its not there. Its possible since they don't bring the boxes out to be flush sheetrock anymore that the sheetrockers covered it up and maybe this is the one thats supposed to be downstream, but its not there.

This all might have been the intention, but the only black wire that showed voltage was the on connected to the load side, thats the one thats supposed to go downstream and it should only get its power from the GFI not being tripped. The line terminal has the other wires that presumable go to the downstream outlet(s), such outlets don't exist as far as I can tell.

Right above the closet is an attic. I wanted a light in there and it wasn't done early on, and the electrician was suppose to have put one up there with a switch. He said later that he has done it, but I haven't checked. Could be that light is not getting power now, but we'll see.

I have called the electician a couple of times over the last few months to fix other problems, such as a ceiling fan that one switch turns the fan and the light on while the adjacent switch does nothing, and an outlet in the garage that does not work (a long ways from the GFI in question).

I wanted to plug in an electric heater and the plug I needed, even though the green light worked, wouldn't work. So I had to tear into it my self and the short wires and combination of wire sizes really made it difficult.

 

[podagrower]

If you can bring your house to FL, I'd be happy to come take a look for you
How the GFCI outlets in a house are wired together depends on what code the house was built under. Up until the 2002 (I think) NEC, bathroom, garage, and exterior outlets could be on the same 15 or 20 amp circuit. After the code change, bathroom outlets were required to be on a seperate 20 amp circuit, garage and exterior outlets could be on one 15 or 20 amp circuit. This code change also required all kitchen outlets to be GFI protected (with the exception of the one for the fridge), whereas the old code required only those within six feet of the sink to be protected.
I provided this long explanation to help you find the pesky wires which appear to feed nothing. Maybe the attic light was not trimmed out? Maybe there was a hydrotub prewire?

A great tip for finding boxes covered by drywall is to use a straightedge. A four foot level or peice of wood held horizantally against the wall at the height the outlet box is supposed to be at can revel a bulge where the box is hiding.

As for the switch that does nothing, if it is a bedroom, it may control 1/2 of a receptacle. If there was a three wire pulled to the fan, it is easy to make one switch operate the fan and one operate the light.

The outlet in the garage that is not working is the other reason for the long explaination above. Garage outlets must be GFCI protected. Is there a panel in the garage? Is there another GFCI in the garage? If the garage outlet that does not work is on a block wall, it may be installed in a metal box, and may be shorted out, causing many of your problems. There is a metal clamp in the metal boxes to secure the wire, which if overtightened, will result in a short. Also, the screws on the side of a receptacle can touch the metal box.

Good luck,
Use a tester you trust to make sure power is off.

Never trust an Electrician with signed eyebrows, or a Plumber with wet pantslegs.

 

[ToadHill]

JB4310 All the GFI's are on one circuit, none of the regular plugs are on that circuit.

 

[JB4310]

Well if they are all on the same circuit then yes that would be expected, that all the outlets that are fed thru the load side of a GFCI that trips would loose power.
It's just an expensive way of getting the same protection that one GFI protecting the outlets beyond it would give.
FYI I am not an electrician but have taken residential wiring classes, there may be codes in your state that would require the way yours is done, which I would have no knowledge of.

 

[ultrarunner]

I was required by the city to retro fit GFCI's in my rental unit. I opted to install Hubell GFCI's at each required location.

The reason for each location is to spare myself from nuisance calls on nights and weekends because a "Regular" outlet no longer works. It is simple enough to tell anyone over the phone to press the reset button and try plugging in the device again.

The reason for Hubell is because I've never had a bad one all the years I've worked in the Medical Field. I have seen plenty of the $5 Big Box ones fail... well about a dozen in 10 years...

Usually, they are located outside and will fail to trip when tested, or they nuisance trip.

In an existing home, the last thing you want to have is a GFCI protecting downstream outlets serving freezers of refrigerators.

 

[JB4310]

In an existing home, the last thing you want to have is a GFCI protecting downstream outlets serving freezers of refrigerators.

OR SUMP PUMPS, I see it all the time being in the basement waterproofing business.

 

[SpringHollow]

I use GFCI breakers which seem to be much more reliable than most of the outlet style GFCI units. Some have been installed for 15 years or more with no problems. My sump pump and refrigerator are on their own circuits but they are GFCI circuits. Even my 220 V air compressor is on a GFCI 220 V breaker but only because I found an inexpensive used breaker. The only thing not on GFCI in the house is the electric stove and the electric clothes dryer. In the barn, most of the 220 V circuits are not GFCI breakers.

Out of all of those breakers and years, I have had a couple of trips where the problem was unknown - may have been a temporary short or some type of nuisance trip. All of the other trips have been due to something shorting out.

Ken