geothermal sticker shock

[heehaw]

i just sent you a private message with some info i copied and pasted about geothermal: for more info, doug rye has a good web site at www.dougrye.com all sorts of info about energy saving ideas etc...
heehaw

 

[JimMorrissey]

farmer, I've been looking into micro-hydro lately. It's a very cool concept if you've got the flow. I tried to get a tap off a huge column of water from the local power company to "fill our pond /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" but that didn't pan out. Parents have a nice stream I might try to bring on-line for them. Fun stuff. But that's another post as you mention.

 

[budman72]

I had the same issue when I built my house 2 1/2 years ago, a geothermal unit was going to be close to $20K, I put in a high efficiency heat pump with propane backup for just over $8K. Last winter I pulled out a gas fireplace and put in a wood burner, it supplies most of the heat for my house, but boy does it go through wood. So far the only price on firewood has been some gas and my labor.

Bud

 

[marks]

Prior to building our home I conducted an extensive amount of research on the use of geothermal systems. At the time there were only two contractors, on the California Central Coast, that had were familiar with such installations. Hence they were able to afford a premium pricing structure. Their price of $18k was $12k more than what we paid for: a two stage variable speed 100k btu 96% efficient propane furnace, with three zones (controlled by electric dampers), programmable controllers, and an A/C coil and line sets to the exterior. We seldom need A/C, however it made sense to have the option available. The advantage of having instant heat, and the $12k savings made the decision an easy one. The last detail is that a 5% rate of return on the $12k savings more than covers the cost of the propane used by the furnace.

For what it's worth...

 

[kenmac]

I don't know of anyone installing geothermal systems in my area.Just too expensive.You also have to consider future problems with the under ground piping, nothing last forever.I had a chance to go to school on these units, but there is just no market here.I think you choose the best route with the 90%+ unit . I try to push the 90%+faf (where I can) with high eer A/C unit.I'm sure there are other opinions out there. this is just mine /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[farmerpsv]

hey all,
bit of an update. got a second price on the same geo system, apples to apples and was quoted 1k less. i got a tremendous amount of input from techman(thanks again), and the more i research this the more i learn. hopefully when it comes time to install i'll be a hvac genius /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. i was very tempted to do my own install, but have to choose my battles and am doing other things that i know more about on this project and hvac is necessary for occupancy in our area. so, am looking at air to air. got a price on a York stealth system, pretty neat. 15 seer, 9.3 on the heat end...19k price tag for a 2 zone 2.5 up 2.5 down system. 4 floors on the house. again, i was surprised. i put in a 2zone trane 13seer system 2 years ago for 9k. it need duct work in only one zone, and the 19k price includes duct for the whole house. the 9k system had the flex duct, the 19k rigid. still, am very perplexed by the double cost. need to get some more prices i guess, expected air to air to be substantially less. at this rate i may have to install my own duct.
paul

 

[Edge]

I did a lot of work in the commercial construction industry a couple years ago. HVAC has the highest mark up of all the trades and most of the profit is in the duct work. Duct work isn't hard but it is tricky, and the best education is experience. Now I would never suggest any collusion in those that supply to the trades, but we made a lot of money abover our hourly rate in the volume discount we got on the paint we used. I know the HVAC guys did more of the same on the duct.

If you want to beat it, you need to find a friend in the supply house who will give you the contractor's discount, or a contractor who will let you buy stuff on their account. Of course you still have to install it. Alternatively, find the job foreman for one of the contractors and work out a cash deal. He/she can get the stuff at the contractor's discount and he has the experience to make the install happen with a minimum of hassle.

 

[kenmac]

I don't know where your located, but you don't just buy duct work off the shelf . Around here it is fabricated to the size unit installed.Alot of work goes into building duct. And yes it takes alot of experience& equipment to build it.If you use metal you have cost of metal, glue for insulation, brakes,shears, drives & s-lock machine, etc.If I left anything out Murph, please add. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[db2]

In 1996 I put a ground source heat pump in. I do know that although it was expensive, I presently heat and cool my home with less dollars than anyone that I know. I plan to live in my home for many more years and I know utility prices will go up. I think you have to look at your individual situation in making a decision.

 

[Edge]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I don't know where your located, but you don't just buy duct work off the shelf . Around here it is fabricated to the size unit installed.Alot of work goes into building duct. And yes it takes alot of experience& equipment to build it.If you use metal you have cost of metal, glue for insulation, brakes,shears, drives & s-lock machine, etc.If I left anything out Murph, please add. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif )</font>

No offense taken, and none intended. You are obviously in the trade. I didn't intend to imply the metal ducting was off the rack. Around here, the metal duct is predominantly built by independant fab shops in mostly standard sizes and installed by any number of contractors. Flexible stuff can be bought in lots of places or even over the internet for a lot less. And the vast majority of what is going in new homes right now is flexible. It sounds like it may be different down there in LA. And if you're not from LA, again, no offense intended. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

My only point is: I go into the fab shop as joe shmo buliding my own house and I get charged and arm and a leg. Joe contractor goes in and gets the stuff for less than half the price. I don't complain, that's just the way it is. I can either accept the deal, or try and find a way to go around.

 

[kenmac]

You didn't offend me by your statment. Most of the people I know that are in the business fab their own duct and most is metal . The flex stuff don't last very long in a house with crawl space.Dogs& cats love the stuff. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[moeh1]

A couple thoughts on sheet metal. I have a friend who is a shop teacher at a vocational high school. They have the equipment, but not much budget for metal, they are often open to free labor for a true DIY job. Might be a one off option for you... He also had a book that did list all the various sizes of duct, although they usually are shop made. I called a couple shops, found one that had prices in the same range and had them fab alot of it due to time constraints. I got decent pricing even though I am "Joe off the street", but it might depend on how much competition is on your area.... Also, www.ACdirect seems to offer a custom design and fab service....

 

[heehaw]

how about maintenance..most conventional systems can go 10 years easy, without being touched...how has that compared to the geothermal?? the guy i keep trying to get everyone to look at his site, dougrye.com, really pushes geothermal..and says the reduced heating and cooling bills will make up for the high cost..if your going to stay put...
how many feet of pipe did you have to put in and what size is your geothermal unit..around here, the rule of thumb is 200ft of pipe/well per ton.
heehaw

 

[db2]

Heehaw: Sorry for the delay...been offline and outside for a few weeks. I have the unit inspected once per year. So far the only cost I've incurred is $100.00/year C$ for the guy to drive out and inspect the unit and take the loop temperature. No problems encountered. I clean the air filters monthly (15 minute job). I have to look it up but I believe I put in about 3500 feet of horizontal loop. I think this is overkill but at the time I was expecting to expand the system to heat a hot tub and garage. As expected I have ample heat capacity in my loop. System has worked great since '96 and I don't regret the purchase at all.

 

[gmsssi]

In 1998 we put in a 4 ton, 3 zone ground source (3600 feet of horizontal loop) geo system in our 3200 sq/ft. log home at a price of $11,500. Average monthly power bill, with lots of continual operation appliances, is $135. Definitely worth it....I suggest purchasing the air filter system and if the unit is stored in the basement (like mine), purchase a de-humidifier or purchase the home demidifying system with the unit ($1,400, todays price). Last service call showed signs of oxidation. We were running a dehumidifier sporadicly in the basement for our comfort. Technician suggested continual operation as preventive maintenance, nothing serious at this time.

When we built the home I couldn't get gas out here in the boonies, so we are all electric. Well, if you saw one of my recent post, gas well drilling has just been completed on my property. Now we get free gas......go figure!

 

[DaveNay]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( whoa!! just got the price for a 3 ton, 4 zone geothermal heat pump system...26k. is it just me, or is that a wee bit high? out of my budget, that's for sure. i'm starting to think about it though and wonder if maybe the air to air could be played with. in my area, we do get enough of the below thirty to kick the heat strip in, don't really want propane back up..trying to get as independant of oil and electric company as i can (i'm one of those people who wants to install a micro hydro power station in my creek, but that's a later post). i'm wondering if one could build a cold frame around the condensor coil to take advantage of solar gain, maybe fill some drums with water to absorb the heat. i do some farming and hoop houses can really extend a season. i have lots of wood, am also thinking of marrying the system to a whole house wood furnace. what do you think? )</font>

Don't forget to investigate state and federal subsidies!!

I have been researching a windmill generator for our consistently windy property, and I have found the following site:

DSIRE Home

They list programs available from utilities, states and federal programs. Some of the available programs can be 50% matching of funds or more! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

If you are really interested in this type of energy source, don't skip this valuable option.

Dave