GC2410 MF block heater problem

[MF RED in MT]

Hey everyone, I purchased a MF block heater kit # 4269250M91 on 01/08/2010 and installed it as soon as I received it. Everything installed easy and it has worked great until now, . Yesterday, I plugged the heater in for the first time since about April of this year, and it tripped the circuit breaker as soon as it was plugged in, . I reset the the breaker and try again, it trips again, . This is a 20 amp single use plug with nothing else on it and it trips again, :confused2:.
I then unscrew the nut holding the electrical connection to the block heater, and inside the electrical connection I find anti-freeze, . There has not been even a drop of any anti-freeze ever leaking from this block heater since I had installed it. I know that the only way this anti-freeze could get inside where the electrical connection is ... it must have a small pin hole leak in the weld of the block heater?
I have called my MF dealer where I purchased it and he has shipped a new one to me (after I pay for the new one), but says he will credit my credit card when I ship the defected block heater back to him, . My MF dealer did offer to ship me one free if I would ship the defected one back first, but then I would be without a tractor and we have had 18 inches of snow in the last 2 days, :laughing:, that would leave me without a tractor for a few days and I just did not want to go through the tractor withdrawals, :laughing:.
My question to you all, whew, , have any of you had any problems like this? KC,
B.T.W. I have always used a HD Timer and only the max time of 1 hour, even when it is minus 30 degrees F.

 

[rScotty]

Hello Red,
I don't own a Massey - but I've been involved with tractor repair for over 20 years now and have friends who are dealers.
Sounds to me like you have it diagnosed right with the leak. Either a pinhole or maybe the element was too long - more about that below.. Pinholes happen and I doubt anyone tests those heaters when they make them beyond checking that they heat up. If that. In fact I doubt very many people at Massey have any idea who makes the block heaters they sell. Too bad it went wrong, but a darn good thing that it didn't drain out the coolant resulting in overheating. That could have happened and been much worse.
You sound reasonable and so does your dealer. Really it's a minor problem that I've wondered about and never seen before. Replace it and don't worry about it. But as you replace it, read on....
Some of those block heaters are "universal" and fit a number of tractors. The problem to worry about is always whether they have enough clearance inside the water jacket. It might not be the heater's fault either. The inside of the water jacket is just a nickle iroon casting poured around a sand core and those can sure vary. Ever seen the inside of a water jacket? Very irregular and rough surface. The tight clearance in the water jacket is whey the heating elements tend to be shaped into a flattened "L". If the element contacts the metal of the block inside the water jacket the expansion of the element pushing could sure break something or cause it to leak. Maybe a combo of a small block space and a large heater element....So as you put the new one in, first check for an eighth inch of clearance. The traditional way to check clearance issues if you suspect something that can't be measured is to stick a bit of modeling clay to one or the other and look to see if it gets smashed down.
good luck,
rScotty

 

[Don87]

Hello Red,
I don't own a Massey - but I've been involved with tractor repair for over 20 years now and have friends who are dealers.
Sounds to me like you have it diagnosed right with the leak. Either a pinhole or maybe the element was too long - more about that below.. Pinholes happen and I doubt anyone tests those heaters when they make them beyond checking that they heat up. If that. In fact I doubt very many people at Massey have any idea who makes the block heaters they sell. Too bad it went wrong, but a darn good thing that it didn't drain out the coolant resulting in overheating. That could have happened and been much worse.
You sound reasonable and so does your dealer. Really it's a minor problem that I've wondered about and never seen before. Replace it and don't worry about it. But as you replace it, read on....
Some of those block heaters are "universal" and fit a number of tractors. The problem to worry about is always whether they have enough clearance inside the water jacket. It might not be the heater's fault either. The inside of the water jacket is just a nickle iroon casting poured around a sand core and those can sure vary. Ever seen the inside of a water jacket? Very irregular and rough surface. The tight clearance in the water jacket is whey the heating elements tend to be shaped into a flattened "L". If the element contacts the metal of the block inside the water jacket the expansion of the element pushing could sure break something or cause it to leak. Maybe a combo of a small block space and a large heater element....So as you put the new one in, first check for an eighth inch of clearance. The traditional way to check clearance issues if you suspect something that can't be measured is to stick a bit of modeling clay to one or the other and look to see if it gets smashed down.
good luck,
rScotty

Very good advice!
The only thing I saw missing was that most of the time, the block heater can be turned in the hole to keep the element from contacting the block.:thumbsup:

 

[MF RED in MT]

Thanks for the info - rScotty & Don87, The complete block heater and element extend into the block only 3/8", so the clearance issue is not the problem, . The mounting is fixed by a plate which has to line up with 2 block tapped screw holes.
I have inspected the element side of the block heater and it uses a soldering connection for the probes that extend through, . I am in the process of checking for the leak by filling the element side with water and waiting for the leak to show itself, . I know from experience that a small pin hole leak like this may not show up without some extra pressure/heat to push the fluid through the pin hole, :thumbsup:. Regardless if the leak shows up, that is the only way for the anti-freeze to pass into the electrical connection area on the exterior side of the block, because I have had no other leaks with this block heater :licking:.
I am sending the defected block heater back and do expect this to be a warranty issue, because there is not a issue with proper installation. Also only 10 months (actual use of the block heater was only 3 months) of use before the block heater failed, and $130 is a steep price for a block heater (figures out to $43 a month for the actual use of this block heater) , :thumbsup:. KC

 

[irvingj]

MFRed- so far mine's still working... but it sure does sound like you just got a "bad" one. And yes, they aren't cheap, but they do fit very well, at least mine did. I guess universal types area lot less money, but I like the way the M-F unit mounts right into the block- no hose cutting to deal with. Nice that your dealer is standing behind it!:thumbsup:

 

[rScotty]

Thanks for the info - rScotty & Don87, ..........., and $130 is a steep price for a block heater (figures out to $43 a month for the actual use of this block heater) , :thumbsup:. KC

OK. It wasn't clear to me that you had installed the original block heater, although it sounds like you will be installing this one.

In tracing small leaks, one trick is to use alcohol instead of water if the hole is very small.

I don't blame you for being ticked. That is about three times what a block heater normally costs at the top end of retail, and since the difference couldn't be in the manufacturing costs, one would hope that value was added to the product by doing some testing. Apparently not in this case.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

IrvingJ, your signature says,
"Numerous antique Japanese motorcycles"

Dang! I used to have a motorcycle shop & the whole concept of a Japanese motorcycle cansidered to be an antique makes me feel kinda odd. Aren't they all sort of young for that? If a Japanese motorcycle can be an antique, what does that make the old European bikes? Vintage?
rScotty

 

[Don87]

Thanks for the info - rScotty & Don87, The complete block heater and element extend into the block only 3/8", so the clearance issue is not the problem, . The mounting is fixed by a plate which has to line up with 2 block tapped screw holes.
I have inspected the element side of the block heater and it uses a soldering connection for the probes that extend through, . I am in the process of checking for the leak by filling the element side with water and waiting for the leak to show itself, . I know from experience that a small pin hole leak like this may not show up without some extra pressure/heat to push the fluid through the pin hole, :thumbsup:. Regardless if the leak shows up, that is the only way for the anti-freeze to pass into the electrical connection area on the exterior side of the block, because I have had no other leaks with this block heater :licking:.
I am sending the defected block heater back and do expect this to be a warranty issue, because there is not a issue with proper installation. Also only 10 months (actual use of the block heater was only 3 months) of use before the block heater failed, and $130 is a steep price for a block heater (figures out to $43 a month for the actual use of this block heater) , :thumbsup:. KC

Your welcome, and my comment was only intended for 'universal' 'freeze plug type' block heaters, but I'm sure you already understood that.
As far as your situation, you need a new block heater, yours is defective. as you said.......heat and pressure will show the pinhole......but we already have seen the outcome.
I personally have installed quite a few 'aftermarket freeze plug type' block heaters, but have no experience with the 'hose type' heaters. But I will add that although I've never installed one, (or used one)I don't see any problems in functionality.............heat rises(in air or water), so installing in the bottom hose or block............I can't see a difference without actually testing each independently.

 

[irvingj]

Yes, Scotty, I agree.

My newest J-bike is 28 years old, the oldest is 39... but in NH, at least, "antique" means at least 25 years old; though I really don't feel that my '82 Virago qualifies, it still fits the definition in this area. Over 30? Well, maybe....
Personally, I think "vintage" might be a more appropriate term for my bikes; guess it just depends on your point of view.

As far as the M-F block heater goes, yes, I too was quite shocked at the price-- it certainly blew my tractor budget for that month! But when it went in so well and seemed to be made of quality components...well, I felt somewhat better about it. (At least it wasn't made in China!)

 

[Don87]

I can't afford the block heater right now, so I'm hoping that I can get her to fire when it decides to get cold here.

 

[ray66v]

I can't afford the block heater right now, so I'm hoping that I can get her to fire when it decides to get cold here.

Mine has miraculously started for 5 winters, just fine without a block heater. Even when it got really cold. :thumbsup:

 

[irvingj]

Don't get me wrong, my GC has always started, even without the block heater... it just starts more easily --a lot more easily-- with the block heater. Guess I'm just thinking of less wear & tear on the battery & starter.

After starting it in cold weather, I let it idle for several minutes to warm up the hydraulic fluid.

 

[Don87]

Mine has miraculously started for 5 winters, just fine without a block heater. Even when it got really cold. :thumbsup:

That's good news, thanks.

 

[ray66v]

That's good news, thanks.

As well as longer glow plug times, you will probably find that advancing the throttle lever before cranking, becomes necessary for fast cold weather starts.

I usually set mine up about 20% + or -, depending on how cold it is.

Each one is slightly different.

If your normal routine does not result in it starting, you can slowly advance the throttle while cranking, and note the point that it fires at. If conditions are the same on the next start, begin with that setting.

Once your accustomed to cold weather starting, you will know the right combination to get it to light up, in the same amount of time it always does.

Once it fires, set the throttle to a high idle, and go read the Sunday paper, while the part you actually need to worry about in the cold, the 5 gallons of oil in the trans, warms up.

 

[rjmack]

i read the part about cycling the block heater and wondered what would happen if it was left plugged in. then i thought about the block being much smaller than the average v8 or cummins diesel, so i left mine plugged in overnight @-12/-14c* it started fairly easy even though the battery struggled but i was surprised to see that the engine temp was already half way up to operating temp.

i have one of those 200w magnetic oil pan heaters but am guessing the transmission is aluminum/non magnetic?

 

[ray66v]

i have one of those 200w magnetic oil pan heaters but am guessing the transmission is aluminum/non magnetic?

Correct, the solution is a self adhesive silicone pad heater, on the bottom of the axle.

Engine oil heater oil pan heater 120v 100watt NEW - eBay (item 180459020000 end time Sep-30-10 11:46:06 PDT)

I think the one I use is 140 watt. Running continuously, it keeps the oil from getting cold.

 

[MF RED in MT]

Update about my old & new block heater, :thumbsup:. Tomorrow, I am shipping the old (bad) block heater back to my MF dealer. When I did the switch out, I also installed new anti-freeze because it is now 1 year old, Happy birthday little MF GC2410, :laughing:. These MF block heaters are priceless when it gets down to minus 25 F. I have found out that about 1 hour is the max needed to heat the tractor enough for a smooth start and idle, :thumbsup:. My tractor did start up without a block heater, but it was sure rough running for a while. I agree with Irving, I believe it saves wear and tear on the engine. Thanks for all the replies, KC
B.T.W. todays high was 8 degrees F.

 

[lambs]

Cheap block heater solution:

Go to local big box pet store and buy a heat lamp for reptile cages.
Go to Ace hardware and buy a heat lamp bulb (expensive at the big block store)
Fab up a bracket to support the heat lamp under the tractor oil pan.
Use a lamp timer to turn it on a couple hours before you need to crank up.

I used a gable mount from a gable fan to support the heat lamp. Mine will raise the temp under the hood to 40 on a 20-degree day.

 

[ray66v]

Cheap block heater solution:

Go to local big box pet store and buy a heat lamp for reptile cages.
Go to Ace hardware and buy a heat lamp bulb (expensive at the big block store)
Fab up a bracket to support the heat lamp under the tractor oil pan.
Use a lamp timer to turn it on a couple hours before you need to crank up.

.

You can simply throw a trap over the tractor, and put a small electric heater under it.

People even do this outdoors to thaw frozen fuel lines.

 

[Gio]

MY GC wouldn't start this Morning, kept cranking until the Battery gave up. I jumped it, still no luck, checked the fuel filter, etc, no luck.

It was under 20 degrees but i thought she would start. Luckily this happened before our first snow.

Would a block heater help this situation? Are they easy to install?

Gio