Gauge wheels or tail wheel?

[WagonRanch]

I've done quite a bit of looking on TBN to learn about gauge wheels and tail gauge wheels because I want to build a gauge of some sort for my 60" Rhino RB.

From what I've seen the addition of a gauge is desirable, but there have been some issues and I'm trying to do this fairly inexpensively yet ruggedly enough to not have to do it over again. I do not have rear hydraulics on ether one of my tractors and don't feel that this modification justifies the additional expense.

I want the wheel(s) to be adjustable for height, but I'm not sure how critical that adjustment needs to be. With a top link used on a tail wheel the adjustment is infinite; so are trailer screw jacks when used vertically with two wheels. However the tail wheel can get expensive if I go with a wide laminated tire and top link and it increases the length to the point that I think it would be unwieldy in close quarters around buildings. On the other hand the trailer jacks aren't any cheaper and they don't seem to be strong enough if I get the HF cheapies.

With two guide wheels I would have a fair amount of tire patch and am hoping that some of the cheaper wheel/tire combos would hold up. There have been several comments about blowing out pneumatic tires (300lb load rating), but I don't see any solid wheels that would be suitable either. Do the steel wheels offer enough impact resistance without shattering on a rock? What about steel wheels with a thin solid poly or rubber "tire"?

The other problem that I've seen with the vertically mounted guide wheels is that they don't seem to very strong and vertical adjustment has to be done with spacers of some sort if trailer jacks aren't used. I've seen a couple of builds using all-thread, but that stuff isn't very strong in my experience.

So, here are a couple of ideas. One tail dragger, which I'm not loving for the reasons stated above and another with a pair of wheels. I realize that the one with a pair of wheels means that I wouldn't be able to readily use the convex side of the blade even with the wheels removed. Do you think this is an acceptable compromise? I maintain about a mile of gravel road with only occasional periods of snow.

The one with the pair of wheels is adjustable, but only in 2" increments (or whatever spacing I end up with). Is this enough adjustment? Too much hassle (pull four clips and pins, move, line up, replace pins and clips)? How about a gross adjustment with the pins and then spacers for finer adjustments? Seems like overkill to me, but then I've never used gauge wheels so I'm making it up as I go along.

Any ideas and/or suggestions that would help me out?

Thanks!

 

[Marveltone]

The way I see it, the farther behind the blade the wheels are, the less chance of getting a roller coaster type road. The blade will inherently leave a more level surface. Of course, the twin gauge wheels allow for independent adjustment to be made to either side of the blade for crowning or ditching operations.

I've been contemplating a similar project for my seldom used RB, and am leaning toward the tail wheel, as it suits my purposes better. As it is, I use my box blade for most things, but the tail wheel can make the rear blade much more useful.

Have you thought of buying a tail wheel for a rotary cutter? They would be very durable. I've never priced on myself... yet.

Good luck!

Joe

P.S. Don't click on the "luck" link, as it's not an intended link. Some sort of internet ad just attached itself to the word. I have no idea how to remove it.

 

[JoeL4330]

I have a hydraulic tail wheel on a LandPride RBT35, 8'-er, and I like it. It's a heavy setup and I replaced the wheel with a solid/filled marathon tire, which holds up fine. The blade can offset 30" and has hydraulic tilt along with the tilt from my T&T so it's great for ditching, crowning, etc. which, as far as I can see, can only be done with a tail wheel, not a pair of gauge wheels. I does add considerably to the overall length, which is good for grading, as described previously, but can get in the way...if I were designing it, it would fold upwards to the vertical (releasing the hyd cyl) if I needed to get close to something with the blade ...I can, of course, detach it entirely.

As for the toplink giving a blade "infinite" adjustment, I assume that what was meant was very fine-grained adjustment but note that changing the toplink length changes the "angle of attack" of the blade, which can be undesirable.

this diagram might be useful to some constructors...hope it is self explanatory as to why I use a "swinging toplink"

 

[mjncad]

I use my rear blade convex side forward most of the time to do final smooth dressing of our driveway. I also remove the tilt pin and let it float side to side to minimize gouging.

Therefore the gauge wheels wouldn't work well in my situation.

 

[MJPetersen]

I made a RB with gauge wheels and I really like it. I used a top link for my adjustment as I do not have hydraulics either. I found that I would play with the adjustment until I was getting the cut that I wanted, then I would be able to just drop it and go--It would cut the high spots and fill the low. I will post a pic of what i did, but you can check out he link for build progress.

I am in the process now of building a new blade and plan on doing something similar for it. The wheels make getting a level pad/road just so much easier and quicker that it does not make sense to do anything else in my opinion. Plus the wheels add weight and that is a good thing.

Mike

 

[zzvyb6]

From my experience on blades and rakes, you need continuous adjustment for 2 gauge wheels because when its angled and the hitch isn't exactly level, one gauge wheel will dig in and the other won't ride the surface crown at all. My stuff uses a clamping system with handles on it to pinch the post of the castered gauge wheels. I can get about +/- 5 inches of differential adjustment as necessary. I like a lot of crown on my gravel drive. It seems to make people drive in the center of it. That keeps the gravel splash onto the grass down. And, using a rake or blade at zero angle on a driveway or road can produce a rippled roadway. The high angled rake/blade cuts the ripples right down to nothing if its wide enough. Having the gauge wheels far behind the rake/blade also ensures that the surface being cut will be the same elevation as the following path. A chain for an upper link goes along with doing the job right.

If you use a single wheel, it needs to have a large footprint so it won't sink into the gravel, dirt or mud under the weight of the blade with its load or extra ballast weight. Wide is better than tall, too, IMHO.

As an extra note, I just bough one of those Ratchet Rakes and I'm wanting to strap it onto the base of my York rake as a first cut Spring driveway gravel recovery task.

 

[bigdad]

My Woods 6 footer has a little play (slop) in it therefore I like the idea of wheels out on the end of the blade. Follows the contour of the road surface better.

Wheel type: I use eight inch metal caster wheels and have never had a problem.

Wheel Adjustment: I welded a plate to the blade with two hardened bolts welded horizontally about three inches apart. The bracket that I welded to the top of the caster has two slots that match the bolt spacing on the blade. That gives me three inches of adjustment. Also I can tip them a bit too.

I have used this system for six years and have had good luck with it. I can also swivel the blade 180 degrees with the wheels active.

 

[WagonRanch]

Thanks for all the help!

It looks like the consensus is for the longer wheel base tail wheel design, so I think I'll pursue that after all. I'm more confident that a pair of airless tires or iron wheels will hold up.

Marveltone, yes I've considered the wheels from a rotary mower, but the Deere dealer wanted $125 for one....without bearings or a mount! I'll keep looking though as I'd like to find a used pair.

JoeL, thanks for the drawing. I'll change to the chain top link. In my description I was talking about the added top link that would be used to adjust the wheels only, not the existing tractor's top link, but this helps nevertheless.

MJ: I saw one picture of this before, but didn't really understand it apparently. I like it! I think I'll try something similar, but with the wheels a bit closer together. Why are your wheels so far apart? Would you change the spacing now that you've used it?

ZZ: I think I see what you're talking about and I agree. The roads I maintain are 22' wide, so I can't put extreme crown in them, but the concept is the same.

BigDad: I did see your RB before, but I didn't think it was adjustable and I still don't understand from the photo how it works. Perhaps you have another photo of the other side that shows the adjustment; that would be helpful.

I'm shopping for a rake and once I get it I'm hoping to make the tail wheel assembly transferable from the RB to the rake.

 

[JoeL4330]

don't have a feel for how heavy you really want the blade to be, but if you are also considering a rake, you might look at how the York rake (or equivalent) has a flip-down blade on the rake.

 

[MJPetersen]

I do not remember debating with myself about the spacing of the gauge wheels and I usually debate long on anything that seems to have strong opinions on either side.:laughing: I believe that the width gives it stability and better averaging of different levels. I have not had any situation that I wished that they were narrower that I remember. I aimed at about 2/3 of the blade width, but I am not sure why. maybe it was a compromise with those who have the wheels mounted right on the blade. Also by mounting them wider I can have it a bit shorter and still swing the blade 180 degrees without hitting the tires.

Mike

 

[WagonRanch]

JoeL: I really like the York rake; it looks like a great tool, but at $3,500 with the blade and wheels it's more than I want to spend. I like the way they did the caster on the wheel mounts. The only good, big casters I've seen are for scaffolding and they are pretty narrow where the Yorks are very wide.

MJP: Thanks for your response. I wasn't thinking about reversing the blade like I should be so I'm glad you mentioned it; I'll make sure I don't get in my own way.....too much.

 

[bigdad]

Ken,

Here is a little more detailed photo of the adjustment slots. Pretty crude I guess..... but works

 

[WagonRanch]

BigDad: OK, thanks! It looks like it a better solution that what I was going to do!

 

[Piston]

Some good ideas on here so far. I also want to add a gauge wheel but I want to put it on my box blade. I want to have a single tailwheel design.

I also plan to have a heavy duty rear blade some day, and want to be able to use my gauge wheel on it. I'd like to keep the option open to easily move it to another implement.

I am planning on adding brackets to my box blade (and whatever other implement I use it for) to hook in a standard 3pt hitch type implement. See the pic for a good idea of what I mean.

Another reason I want to do it this way, is because my trailer is 18' long, and just barely big enough for me to haul my box blade, tractor, grapple, and regular bucket. If I want to take my landscape rake, I can attach it to the box blade (like my gauge wheel would normally be) and fold it up vertical and secure it for transport. This way I can carry an extra implement. I couldn't take anything large or very heavy this way, but for the landscape rake I think it will work well.

I also want to be able to fold up my gauge wheel out of the way, I want to use a hydraulic cylinder to control the gauge wheel in much the same manner as the hydraulic top link controls the box blade. However it would be easy enough to just add a standard manual top link for fine adjustment as well.

This is a spare 3pt frame that I've had laying around for a while. I think it will work well for my purposes, I'll attach the single wheel using a bracket where the rake (or blade, or whatever was on this) would normally be mounted.

 

[WagonRanch]

Piston, we're thinking along the same lines of being able to use the gauge tail wheel(s) on multiple implements. The brackets for the RB and rake seem pretty straightforward to me, but I think I'll have to add a square tube that spans the middle of my box and runs longitudinally to gain enough strength to mount the bracket. It would essentially be a replica of the main longitudinal beam of my RB.

The transfer of the wheels from one implement to the other wouldn't be too bad I don't think: pull two pins, wheel the unit over to the next implement and replace the pins. I'm not a pro, so the "lost" time isn't really a big factor for me.

I'm now seriously considering rear hydraulics for the rear of at least one of my tractors, but have to decide which one and if I want only one circuit or two.

 

[Piston]

If your anything like me, you'll want more than one

I just installed hydraulics on the back of my tractor, I was originally going to go with 3 spools, but I went with 4, and I'm glad I did. I now have top n tilt which leaves me with 2 extra spools. When I have the box blade on, one is for the hydraulic scarifiers, and the other will be for the gauge wheel.

I'm thinking of a bracket style that is hard to explain. I'm going to weld on two brackets on each side of the box blade (the rear of the bb) about a foot apart from each other, then insert a thick wall pipe through the brackets, and the inside diameter of the pipe will be 1", so I can fit the 7/8" cat 1 pins inside. Then I'll push the pipe onto the pins and secure it somehow from backing out. That's the plan anyways!

 

[WagonRanch]

When it comes to tools you just can't have too many! 4 spools may seem excessive to me now, but I sure can see where I could use them too.

The top of the blade of my box isn't near strong enough to do what you're suggesting, but yours looks like it's a lot heavier than mine so I think your design would work just fine. I also don't want to mount an entire 3 point implement there, just the tail wheels.

I'd like to do it right, once, but that's pretty rare for me. "Mistakes are part of the dues that one pays for a full life." -Sophia Loren

 

[WagonRanch]

Here is the latest concept. 8" iron wheels. Shop made forks and spindle. 2.5" heavy wall tubing because I already have it. 3x3/8" plate for uprights. Note that there are 3 wheel locations so that I can run a single wheel for snow. Top link from TSC used as height adjuster.

There is room to swing the blade 360 degrees as do both wheels without touching.

Suggestions?

Thanks again!

 

[teg]

Suggestions?

Put another set of tabs on the main shaft and
use a Pin for the toplink hook up on the main shaft... so you can raise to wheels up out of the way,
Just in case you need to. Just a thought.

 

[WagonRanch]

teg: Good plan; thanks for the suggestion.