Future of HVAC and industry supply issues.

[ultrarunner]

Just had to have some old units repaired and recharged at our church. R-22 was billed at about $500 per lb for less than 2 lbs, $225 per pound for over 2 lbs. Are we headed to a point where A/C is not affordable.

Makes me yearn for the simple life before forced obsolescence.

Still have a 15lb R22 at home… the way things go I will probably keep so long it becomes worthless.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Just had to have some old units repaired and recharged at our church. R-22 was billed at about $500 per lb for less than 2 lbs, $225 per pound for over 2 lbs. Are we headed to a point where A/C is not affordable.

R22 is expensive these days

r22 at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

But even R410A is getting expensive.

 

[Sigarms]

News flash

Last month R454B was more expensive than R22.

R410A is still more than reasonable, and is still less than it sold for a couple of years ago.

Talked to the realtor on selling our home. I'm kind of forced to fix the AC in the basement even though it doesn't need it because I gas furnace is there. The other week, I grabbed a R410A system because I could. I'll probably replace that in August when it's hot because it's below grade. The attic system is still R22, and I'll replace that last, but it will be with R454B the end of this year or the beginning of next year because it will be cooler in the attic.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

News flash

Last month R454B was more expensive than R22.

R410A is still more than reasonable, and is still less than it sold for a couple of years ago.

Talked to the realtor on selling our home. I'm kind of forced to fix the AC in the basement even though it doesn't need it because I gas furnace is there. The other week, I grabbed a R410A system because I could. I'll probably replace that in August when it's hot because it's below grade. The attic system is still R22, and I'll replace that last, but it will be with R454B the end of this year or the beginning of next year because it will be cooler in the attic.

With my buy-side clients (among other things, I'm a real estate broker here in MN), if there is a problem with an R22 system, we ask for a new replacement system. Part of the problem is the HVAC guys don't want to touch R22 systems anymore and for punch lists and inspections, we need deficiencies done by licensed pros.

 

[Sigarms]

With my buy-side clients (among other things, I'm a real estate broker here in MN), if there is a problem with an R22 system, we ask for a new replacement system. Part of the problem is the HVAC guys don't want to touch R22 systems anymore and for punch lists and inspections, we need deficiencies done by licensed pros.

The biggest issue with R22 is not the refrigerant itself being expensive, but finding a compatible compressor bearing unit to go with a air handler or a air handler with a compressor bearing equipment.

This is now becoming the issue with R410A units in residential applications. R410 equipment was stopped being made end of 2024, and it will be illegal to install a complete R410A system in 2026.

Smart contractors already converted to either 454 or 32 at the beginning of this year.

 

[Sigarms]

Daikin… I have one package unit on the roof and it’s the newest not counting the Bryant recent install…

Maybe I got a bad one but it was advertised as a direct Carrier replacement but it was not… had leaking coil and bad compressor under warranty but took months to get the coil from
Asia.

The reason why it's called a direct replacement isn't due to the "quality", but the physical dimensions of the unit where you don't need to to use a curb adaptor, which could have huge cost savings if you had to replace multiple units on one roof.

Carrier dominated the rooftop market decades ago. More than a couple of manufacturers copied Carrier's physical design as well as all of your hookups to help save on time for replacement.

Daikin / Goodman commercial rooftops use micro channel coils, which also enables them to sell them cheaper. They (Daikin / Goodman) are notorious at least in my area for quality issues. Ironically the other brand big on marketing Carrier direct replacements is York. Personally, I wouldn't use either brand.

 

[KennyG]

Last year we replaced a Carrier unit because the heat exchanger failed after about 5 years. We went to a Daikin because it was almost 10k cheaper and had a 10 year HX / coil warranty which others did not.

 

[Sigarms]

Last year we replaced a Carrier unit because the heat exchanger failed after about 5 years. We went to a Daikin because it was almost 10k cheaper and had a 10 year HX / coil warranty which others did not.

Pretty much every residential gas furnace has a minimum of a 20 year warranty if the heat exchanger fails unless it's installed in a commercial application.

If you had that Carrier furnace for 5 years after it was installed, the heat exchanger was under parts warranty and you should only expect to pay the labor to replace that heat exchanger.

If a heat exchanger in a gas furnace goes out after 5 years, most likely a issue with airflow.

If you paid anywhere near 10k for a gas furnace replacement, no nice way to put it other than you got ripped off. Most likely at that cost difference a complete HVAC system?

 

[KennyG]

The replacement was a rooftop package unit at my church. The total cost was over 25k. The failed unit was old and had already had the HX replaced once and failed again in a little over 5 years.

 

[Sigarms]

The replacement was a rooftop package unit at my church. The total cost was over 25k. The failed unit was old and had already had the HX replaced once and failed again in a little over 5 years.

Sorry, commercial a different story on warranty.

Still, Carrier has a minimum of 10 year heat exchanger warranty along with a 5 year compressor and 1 year parts warranty on 3 phase package equipment as well as most everyone else. Not certain if your package unit was only 5 years old why the heat exchanger wasn't covered.

Goodman / Daikin micro channel cooling coils leave a lot to be desired IMO.

That said, dealings with churches can be interesting on commercial jobs, particularly with their finance committee