Oil & Fuel Fuel Transfer Strategies

[PineRidge]

Hmmmm are you saying then that air might not be such a good idea after all? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[hdbikercouple]

no water in my tank because of the air . i use the air for the air tools & they don't like water. so there is a filter in line before the desiel. without that you still should not get any with a filter on your outlet of the fuel tank. i learned desiels need clean fuel . that is why i don't use jugs & carry fuel. run with low pressure so the filter does its job & change when needed. . it works great for me.

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Well transferring combustible liquids by air is permitted by Code, NFPA 30, 2003 edition, see below.

7.3.7.4 Transfer of liquids among vessels, containers, tanks, and piping systems by means of air or inert gas pressure shall be permitted only under all of the following conditions:
(1) The vessels, containers, tanks, and piping systems shall be designed for such pressurized transfer and shall be capable of withstanding the anticipated operating pressure.
(2) Safety and operating controls, including pressure-relief devices, shall be provided to prevent overpressure of any part of the system.

If you know what pressure the drum can withstand AND you have a pressure relief valve you can do it.

Diesel is a class II combustible liquid. BUT if you spray it and cause it to atomize i.e. from a drum lid pooping off, it will lower the flash point and any source of ignition will result in a ball of fire. Hopefully you or anyone from your family is not around when this happens. Of course this always happens to the other guy. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

OK work hat off now. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[HuckBB62]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Mike,

I installed a male air line quick coupler into the 1" bung in the 55 gallon drum I was using for my fuel storage. Run the regulator on my shop air lines down to 5 psi, hook a line to the quick coupler on the tank, stick hose in the tractor's fuel tank and open the shutoff valve on the hose and away you go - it works very well. If I had known how well I could have saved the $90 I spent on a good GPI hand pump at TSC. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd say the only thing you have be careful of is the pressure - dunno what a 55 is rated for, but I'd think that 5 or 10 psi is within safe limits. I always uncouple the air line immediately after I close the valve.

When I'm done I cover the end of the QD with a plastic automotive vacuum cap. It's amazing to me how much pressure that vacuum cap will keep in the tank with just a friction fit. )</font>

Boy howdy, we used to transfer oil out of drums to storage on the battleship with air pressure. We didn't have a regulator! We had one gomer on the valve at the other end of the hose. One time, the dummy wasn't paying attention and we got who knows how much pressure in the drum. The bottom and top punked out like a ball park frank, scared us to death! Master Chief was already having kittens about the spillage on the teak!

I've seen drums go on safety videos, nuh-uh, no way, not in a million years, especially with fuel.

 

[rswyan]

John,

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Any sign of water from the compressor in your fuel?
)</font>
Not as far as I can tell - I have an auto drain valve on the compressor tank itself, a Schrader-Bellows water separator/filter just before the hose reel, a drop trap on the line just before that.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( A quick pie,r, squared calc gives a 2 foot diameter barrel an end area of 452 square inches. Ten PSI gives you 4500 pounds of force from compressed air. Figure the crimp on the end of that barrel holding the thin lid on is withstanding enough pressure to lift up a full sized truck. )</font>
Good data and a good point. When I initially started doing this I would only apply the air long enough to get the fuel up the intake line to the hand pump and then I would pump it until I had filled the tractor. At some point I got a little lazy and just let the air do the work - sounds like that might not be a real good idea.

The missing data would be "What are 55 gallon drums rated for, pressure-wise ?" And after that, factor in barrel age, abuse, etc.

 

[Highbeam]

I agree. Both the fireman's post and rswyan's point out that we do not know what pressure a barrel is rated for. This is critical. The right pressure vessel would make this much safer.

If the barrel and the bunghole connections can take 10 psi then great, you could lift fuel more than 23 feet vertically. 3 psi gets you more than 7 feet. I used pressure from a water column for the calc where 1 psi is equal to 28 inches of water.

A guy could add the air with a hand pump to be safe. Gauges that read less than 10 psi with any dream of precision are rare but 3 psi should be plenty for most uses.

Why don't we do an experiment? Some fill a barrel half full of water and then run their air hose to it, a long ways away, and keep adding pressure until it blows. I bet it would be fantastic and since steel barrels are free and completely recycleable..... It could be a game like guessing how many jelly beans are in the jar.

 

[klaxis]

Go for it Highbeam.... let us know how it works. Makes sure you run up to the barrel and check the pressure every minute so we are sure to get a good reading when she blows. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[SteveInMD]

After reading the post by v8dave, I realize I've already got the tank - my home heating oil tank. I would just need to plumb up a pump on the side of my house. The tank is in my basement so I have good access. Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[Soundguy]

I'm late coming in on this.. but also have a question on fuel xfer. My nh holds 21g's of fuel.. and that's me with (4) 5 g tanks.. crawling up the side of the tractor like spiderman, and then eventually balncing the tank on the hood. Not at al an easy setup.

Anyone know if Harbor freight has a rotary hand pump? I'd be willing to pay up to 50$ for some sort of hand pump to help with fuel xfer... any ideas?

soundguy

 

[jeffinsgf]

There's another threading running on a similar subject.

I bought a 300 gal gravity feed tank and MFA will bring me a minimum of 150 gallons at time (or 100 if I don't mind waiting until they're in the neighborhood). It is great, but even with both a Bobcat and my 4410 (and a lot of work to do), my first purchase is likely to be a summertime supply. In retrospect, I may have been better off with a 55 gallon drum and a barrel pump, which I think you could set up for around $50.00 -- certainly less than $100.00. On the other hand -- Off road diesel went up about 20 cents a gallon about 3 days after I bought my 150 gal. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[jwstewar]

Yes they do. They also have a lever pump $19 - 25 for barrels. I'm considering ordering one of lever pumps because I'm not happy with the rotary pump that I got from Cummins tools.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Anyone know if Harbor freight has a rotary hand pump? )</font>

I have one I got from them for around $20 (right before it went on sale /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) I use it in a 55 gallon drum I use to store waste oil that I burn to heat my shed .... works just dandy.

 

[JeffRey30747]

I have this one ...
Harbor Freight barrel pump
I got it for $10 during one of their half price sales. It works fairly well. It says "self-priming" but sometimes it primes easier than others. Once it gets going, it is well worth the money.

Jeff

 

[SteveInMD]

Just for comparison I got a quote from my oil company... $810 for my fuel oil company to install at 275 gallon tank. That includes - fill pipe, vent, level gauge, and legs. A 110 volt Fill-Rite pump is $260 from Northern Tool. My oil company has a 150 gallon minimum and are charging $2.25 for highway diesel right now (I have a diesel Jetta and a pickup truck). That would be a nice setup, but $1,070 is pretty hard to swallow.

I'd look at a hand pump but I can't figure out how I would turn the crank and be close enough to the tractor to watch the level. I'd end up spilling just as much fuel as I do now with my 5 gallon cans.

 

[Highbeam]

As far as filling without being able to look into the hole...

These pumps have a volume per stroke rating so count your strokes and/or don't top it off. You will want to take a rest occasionally anyway since your pumping arm will get tired.

Another trick is to listen to the gurgling.

It is worth it to not have to lift and hold those big can up in the air. No big deal if it's not topped off.

 

[rswyan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have this one ... )</font>
That's the one I have too - for my waste oil drum.

I have this one from GPI that I got at TSC for the fuel tank.

GPI HP-90 pump

I do not recommend it - it takes about a bajillion strokes to prime - and it simply won't prime at all if I have the fuel filter element installed after the pump. Kinda useless really .......

I plan on taking it back to TSC and asking for credit the better HP-100 or an electric one.

 

[SteveInMD]

I called a local tank supply company - their price for a 275 gallon tank, legs, vent, level gauge is $340. I'd have to pick it up and put the parts together myself. My question is - how can this be $470 less than my oil company? Aren't all 275 gallon oil tanks about the same? Was my oil company sticking it to me? Or should I be suspicious of the $340 product?

These prices are without a pump..

 

[Jagmandave]

I have that same pump, used to use it to pump safety solvent out of a barrel into a pan to wash up parts, found it would rust up if left alone long enough. But, using it for diesel fuel or home heating oil should be no problem. Sometimes if I haven't used it for a while I've got to spin it pretty good to get it primed, but other than that it works great. I'd much rather turn a pump than back-and -forth it, easier on the shoulder IMHO.