foton 404 tractor fluids a d where to put them :)

[Wa11banger]

Hello everyone my name is Rick and not only am I new to TBN but I am also new to tractors and basically any heavy equipment.

I bought a 2004 Foton 404 with a Koyker loader on it less than 24 hours ago and have been having some good fun in the backyard.

I searched and read many posts here on the forum and have some questions. Unfortunately some will be repeats because I dont think I quite understand the information in the post previously. Also I am quite mechanically minded just mostly on cars, trucks, etc I have no experience on big equipment nor hydraulics but I am pretty sure with minor education from you all they wont be that much more difficult just bigger and heavier.

Like with all used things bought, I want to change out all the fluids.

1) fluids? Ok I read several posts on this I am going to quote what I think was the best answer to it but still would like some clarity.

For the engine, I use Shell Rotella T 15W40. If Canada uses the API Rating system like we do, any 15W40 will do - as long as it's rated API-CF or betterFor the front diff/tranny/rear diff I use Shell Spirax HD 80W90. If Shell is hard to come by, select an 80W90 that is both anti-foaming AND safe for yellow metals. If that one confuses you, it's mentioned enough times in this forum where the search engine will bring back clarification.It can get cold here in the winter, so I use AW32 (ISO32) hydraulic fluid year round. Brand is not important to me, as long as it's clearly marked as non-foamingMost folks will use engine oil in the injection pump, but I prefer full detergent ISO100 compressor oil.*And of course, a minimum 50/50 mixture of a decent green antifreeze/water for the cooling system. If you're a winter user, maybe 60/40, but never more than 70/30//greg//

Engine part is easy. Identification of where and somewhat which fluid goes exactly where is the part I am having the most problem with the above quote. Mostly because the manual calls out a tractor transmission/ hydraulic fluid for the geartrain, transmission, and steering. Now I have found a dipstick under a rubber round panel plug in the center floor panel. Its quite long and has plenty of fluid although somewhat murky. It does not smell like gear oil. Is this the transmission? What American fluid here? Is the tranny and rear gear the same? I cannot find what I think is a gearbox fill/check plug.

I also have a vent/dipstick/fill plug on the top left of the lift arm gear box this fluid is fairly clean and I assume is different because of location and it has its own dipstick. I was assuming hydraulic fluid here but it roughly has the same viscosity as the one mentioned above.

Power steering pump left side of engine needs fluid but the above quote confuses me as to what to use there.

Also have a small reservoir on the right top side of the engine, seems to head into/out of a set of twin hyd pumps just below it which goes all the way back to the side of the lift gearbox and the front end loader. Very clean fluid here, clearish and I have no idea what its for lol.

I think I will stop thequestions there for now so I dont overload the post and end up having it go several different directions

Thanks all in advance for your assistance.

 

[zonta223]

Hi
You need the following fluids for the gearbox/rear diff, hydraulics. power steering. Note the gearbox does not use 80w90 gear oil.
The oil is Massey Ferguson mf1135 or ford m2c 86a or JD J20a . I think this is the equivalent of what we call Universal Tractor Oil 10/30w .

You can also use this in the front diff or the 80w90.

The gearbox filler is on the transmission tunnel hidden under an oval rubber plug.

Don't forget to change the oil in the injection pump I use the same oil as the engine.

Enjoy your Foton I love mine

 

[Wa11banger]

Hi
You need the following fluids for the gearbox/rear diff, hydraulics. power steering. Note the gearbox does not use 80w90 gear oil.
The oil is Massey Ferguson mf1135 or ford m2c 86a or JD J20a . I think this is the equivalent of what we call Universal Tractor Oil 10/30w .

You can also use this in the front diff or the 80w90.

The gearbox filler is on the transmission tunnel hidden under an oval rubber plug.

Don't forget to change the oil in the injection pump I use the same oil as the engine.

Enjoy your Foton I love mine

Thanks for your response I appreciate it.

I think I have screwed up already. The power steering was not working well while sitting still so I was looking around and found a cap that I originally thought was a power steering pump (left front side of engine) so I started pouring universal fluid in there and noticed it said oil on top I have not started it yet but have not figured out how to drain it or what it is yet. I guess I need to leave my car mechanic personality at home when working on the tractor. I looked through the manual and it doesnt tell me what that area is or how to drain it.

 

[Wa11banger]

By the way I did find the gearbox fill plug but didnt find a rearend fill plug. Are they one and the same?

 

[Wa11banger]

Finally some success. I found the manual for a nortrac 40xt online and the english is much better and so are the instructions.. I was able to drain the engine oil without having to start it to reposition it so I have little concern there I just need to not do that again lol

 

[greg_g]

Hang on, isn't the FT404 a twin-sump tractor? You only use UTF for common sump tractors. I'm pretty sure the original fluids recommendation you cited in the opening post is correct for your tractor. Wa11banger, check your manual for recommended fluids. If it specs both gear oil and hydraulic fluid, don't waste your money on UTF. It will be too thin for the gears, and too thick for the hydraulics. Regarding anti-freeze, I'm not sure if the FT404 engine is wet-sleeved or dry-sleeved. Conventional automotive coolant is appropriate for dry sleeves, but causes cavitation behind wet sleeves. I recommend erring on the safe side and using an anti-freeze that is stated to have an SCA (anti-cavitation) additive. I use Peak Fleet Charge 50/50

Oh, and I'd advise against relying on a Nortrac manual to work on a Foton. That would not be much different than using a Ford manual to work on a Chevy. The correct manuals for the FT404 comes in a set of three, and costs about $85. I strongly recommend the purchase.

//greg//

 

[Wa11banger]

Greg,
Thanks for chiming in here the original quote was yours from a previous post I found while trying to clarify what to put where. I apologize but I am the extreme noob to tractors and that was part of the reason for the questions in this post was where to put the fluids identified.

Engine easy (well at least now that I know you can add oil up top in the valve cover and bottom on the left.. and as I discovered the bottom left is not the power steering pump lol) I changed the oil already with shell Rotella T without starting it so no real UTF left in the oil pan and I don't think sitting in there overnight caused any issue.

As for twin sump or not I cannot determine. Mostly because I have no idea how to tell the difference. I have identified only three places to add fluid other than the engine
1) rear left corner above lift arms has a breather vent cap with a dip stick on it
2) center of floor panel between feet large bolt head with really long dipstick on it looks to go into the drive-train but pretty hard to see down there
3) Smaller tank right hand top side of engine for power steering
I have looked everywhere for more plugs and drains and have been unsuccessful at finding any. The very few tractor owners I know just scratch there head and say well I dont know so far havent been able to convince one to come over and give me even a best guess tour of the tractor even with beer bribes

I have three manuals for the tractor but they are very poor in describing what things are and where to put fluids, etc. I have a owners manual, the engine manual and a parts catalog. Are these the three in the pack that you are describing?

Thanks again guys for chiming in I do appreciate it.

Rick

 

[zonta223]

Hang on, isn't the FT404 a twin-sump tractor? You only use UTF for common sump tractors. I'm pretty sure the original fluids recommendation you cited in the opening post is correct for your tractor. Wa11banger, check your manual for recommended fluids. If it specs both gear oil and hydraulic fluid, don't waste your money on UTF. It will be too thin for the gears, and too thick for the hydraulics. Regarding anti-freeze, I'm not sure if the FT404 engine is wet-sleeved or dry-sleeved. Conventional automotive coolant is appropriate for dry sleeves, but causes cavitation behind wet sleeves. I recommend erring on the safe side and using an anti-freeze that is stated to have an SCA (anti-cavitation) additive. I use Peak Fleet Charge 50/50

Oh, and I'd advise against relying on a Nortrac manual to work on a Foton. That would not be much different than using a Ford manual to work on a Chevy. The correct manuals for the FT404 comes in a set of three, and costs about $85. I strongly recommend the purchase.

//greg//

Hi Greg.
I was quoting from the manual when I said UTF. That is the recommended transmission oil. Also used in the hydraulics and power steering. And yes the tractor is a twin sump model.

 

[Rich Waugh]

Rick:

Look on the front axle assemblies for fill plugs. Many Chinese manufacturers paint them red, but yours may differ. Might be one, might be two.

 

[Wa11banger]

Thanks guys for the info.. Greg or Zonta what is meant by twin sump? the fact that the hydraulic lift and the gearbox are separate fluid capacity areas or is that to mean that the rear diff and transmission are separate fluid capacity areas?

Thanks Rich I found two plugs on each side of the axle tubes straight up on top (12 o clock) position roughly even in the middle of the length of the tubes. They seem pretty small, are these fill areas? I will check around the gearbox area again when I get home from work.. The tubing from the FEL may have blocked my view and i will get all the way under there tonight.

Again guys thanks for your help

 

[greg_g]

Yes, twin sump means two places to put two different types of lubricant (in this case gear oil and hydraulic fluid). Common (or single) sump tractors use UTF.

Clearly I cannot speak for what's printed in manuals for Australian FT404s. But here in North America we use gear oil in the gear boxes (front diff/mid-connect/tranny/rear diff) and hydraulic fluid for the hydraulics. UTF in America is generally a 20W equivalent. Our average climate is what typically makes UFT too thick for hydraulics and too thin for gears. Average American Foton owners will use 85W90 (about a 30W equivalent) in the gear boxes and AW32 or ISO32 (about a 10W equivalent) in the hydraulic sump. Extreme northerners may elect thinner, extreme southerners may elect thicker. When it comes to power steering, it's personal preference. A standalone PS pump may have an internal bypass, which complicates the fluid selection. I had to go all the way to 50W in mine - to prevent the pump from overheating in the dead of summer.

//greg//

 

[zonta223]

Yes, twin sump means two places to put two different types of lubricant (in this case gear oil and hydraulic fluid). Common (or single) sump tractors use UTF.

Clearly I cannot speak for what's printed in manuals for Australian FT404s. But here in North America we use gear oil in the gear boxes (front diff/mid-connect/tranny/rear diff) and hydraulic fluid for the hydraulics.
//greg//

The Nortrac (sp?) manual quotes the same as my original Foton manual. The UTF specified is 10w30 grade. Wonder if Tommy is following this thread would be interested to know what he uses in the Fotons he sells.

 

[Wa11banger]

Ok still have not found a fill or drain plug for the transmission it seems the only set I have is for the gear box.

However, I found something interesting in the front axle. There was no "upper" fill plug on the front gearbox but I have two small plugs on each axle tube. I cleaned some of the dirt and grime off around them and found a small sight glass window in each of them. How full should I make them somewhere in the middle or fill over them?

 

[Rich Waugh]

Yep, those should be the fill points for the whole front axle assembly. It doesn't hold a huge amount. No point in overfilling them - midway on a sight glass us generally the intended level. The gearbox fill point fills the gearbox (transmission) and the rear axle assembly. You should be all set, i think.

Twin sump means the gearbox and hydraulic sump are two separate sumps. As far as I know, the rear axle assembly on a Foton is like a Jinma and is part of the gearbox sump and is filled when you fill the gearbox.

 

[Wa11banger]

Twin sump means the gearbox and hydraulic sump are two separate sumps. As far as I know, the rear axle assembly on a Foton is like a Jinma and is part of the gearbox sump and is filled when you fill the gearbox.

Awesome thanks for that clarification. I knew the hydraulics were seperate but I was confused as to wether or not the transmission and rearend were, and thought everyone was saying they were also dual sumped.

The front axle definitely has gear oil in it ( has that gear oil smell to it) but I I think the transmission /rearend has universal hydraulic fluid in it, no real smell and not very thick. It is kind of muddy looking in there as well, is that because the brakes are in there too?

 

[greg_g]

When you change or top up the front axle gear oil (it uses the same as the other gear boxes) you only need to add enough to cover the right and left shafts. The sight glass is really there so you can check the quality of the gear oil without opening up. If it gets foamy on the sight glass, you know it's time to change. If there's no splash on the sight glass, you know it's time to top up. You can see the axles through the open fill hole. You only need enough gear oil so you just barely cover the shafts. After that, it works on the simple splash-lube principle. But look also at the outboard drive housings. You may have check and fill points there too.

The transmission by the way, IS a gear box. Gear box is simply a generic and all-inclusive phrase to differentiate them from the separate hydraulic box (sump) which has no gears. Wherever there is a gear train on these tractors, it's enclosed in a "gear box". The individual gear boxes are subsequently differentiated relative to the job they perform; front end, mid-connect, tranny, rear diff, outboard drives, et cetera.

//greg//

 

[Wa11banger]

Greg, Zonta, and Rich,

Thanks you all for your help.. I think you finally got me steered around in the right direction. I called Affordable today and talked to Harold. Great guy, great support/info, and he confirmed Greg is correct. Here in the US we put 80-90w in the front end, the gear box, and the front spindle gearboxes. AW32 in the hydraulics and I am going to follow Greg's advice on the injector pump and use compressor oil. Still havent figured out if I am a wet or dry sleeve so I will leave the antifreeze as is until I do.

I have a steering issue I am troubleshooting as well but I will open a new post for that so that this one stays on track for anyone else that might have the same questions and wants to review all of this great information.

Thanks again all

Rick

 

[Rich Waugh]

Rick,

GO ahead and change out your coolant, using a diesel-rated coolant such as FleetCharge with SCAs (supplemental cooling additives) designed for wet-sleeved engines. If your engine is dry-sleeved the SCAs won't hurt it a bit and my guess is that it is wet-sleeved in which case it is necessary. Old coolant is bad, regardless of type, so replace it with the good stuff and rest easy knowing that you've done a good thing for your engine.

I addressed your steering issue in the other thread.

 

[Hickory Creek]

Thank all of you above for this thread. I am about to tackle the fluids on a 404 as I have no idea when they were changed. Above info. was excellent. At least I know wheere to start my search.

One quick question for W11banger. have you found a cross over domestic brand oil filter that fits the engine? I'm getting ready to order a part and was going to order a filter also, but would love to get domestic one as I think I need to drop the oil pan. Greg, jump in here and help me. Think tractor is a 2000 model. Have had it for almost two years, has been down more than running. Have put about 20 hours on it. Thinking that maybe I need to drop oil pan and see what type of crud is in bottom of pan. I have been told by locals to just empty old oil, fill with deisel and run for a minute and then redrain. This thinking scares me, as I hate to ruin anything. This tractor knocks at idle, but sounds a lot better once revs come up.

 

[Rich Waugh]

All diesels knock at idle. Unless it's bad enough to convince you a journal is hammered, I wouldn't sweat it too much. The flushing with diesel or kerosene (preferred) is a good plan. I wouldn't drop the pan unless I found something horrible when straining the flushings from the crankcase. Have you ever set the valve lash or re-torqued the head? This should be done at 50 hours and at 200 hour intervals thereafter. Incorrect valve timing can affect the knocking you hear at idle, too.