Ford 1715 PTO Clutch Adjusment -- Help

[joe12185]

1. I tried a pipe wrench on the orc shaft, could not get it to slip but there was not much grip avialable because the shaft was very slippery.
2. I used TSC premium fluid, not mystic, it is only listed as good for ford tractors up to 1973, mine is a 1993.
3. I was brush hogging with a 5' newholland hog and the driveshaft stops turning.
4. have to go to work now, but will investigate into the 2 stage clutch issue further when I get home. I was thinking 2 stage clutch was the only culprit left.

 

[JC-jetro]

1. I tried a pipe wrench on the orc shaft, could not get it to slip but there was not much grip avialable because the shaft was very slippery.

3. I was brush hogging with a 5' newholland hog and the driveshaft stops turning.

Item 3 leads me to believe you have clutch slippage. On my 1700 I have a rubber hand hole cover on the bell housing to inspect clutch pressure plate and or adjustment of dual clutch without disassembly. Do you have it on your 1715? if so you can take a peek inside.

JC,


Tracto data report 1715 only came in single clutch transmission driven PTO. They are not always right. I could not find your rig on NH website. If you lose locomotion, doing blading, with gear engaged, clutch out then slippage of clutch disk under heavy load is the most reasonable clue I can think of.

TractorData.com Ford 1715 tractor information

 

[joe12185]

JC,

The tractor has never lost locomotion, the loader is in the way to see in the rubber plug, the one on the left is about 1/2 dollar size and also has the same size plug on the right. The gear that drives the orc countershaft is on the clutch side of the gears that drive the transmission, therefore it could not be on the inner shaft of a 2 stage clutch as you had said would be the case in an earlier post. The gears on the lower transmission shaft spin as one unit pushing on them with a prybar. My conclusion is that I have a single clutch. The powerflow also leads me to the same conclusion.

powerflow:

The power comes in from the clutch and drives the lower shaft in the transmission, this shaft has a gear that drives the countershaft that drives the orc and also has gears that drive the 3 speeds and reverse on the upper transmission shaft.

The upper shaft drives the range selecter.

The range selector drives the differential that drives the rear wheels.

I noticed some milky fluid draining from the orc which tells me that water has gotten in there. Before I reassemble this tractor I am going to rinse it all out with kerosene. I have decided this weekend I will drive the pto shaft, pto countershaft out the rear and remove the orc for inspection, this will also give me piece of mind that the outer race of the orc has the added bearings from the TSB. If I discover any play in the bearings I will replace them. this will also give me a chance to inspect all of these parts for corrosion due to the water I removed last fall. Before I removed the contaminated fluid I had ran the brush hog for about 20 hours last year.

Do you agree with me that this is the next logical step since I already have the tractor split so that these parts can be serviced?

P.S. The TSC Premium fluid meets Ford 134 d,c,b,a specs per the container. The manual says the tractor requires FNH 134 fluid.

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

1-I really think the oil in this case has nothing to do with the problem and engagement is gear to gear and solid unless something causes the shift fork to move and gears jump and go out of mesh. I can only see oil effecting an oil immersed hydraulically activated PTO clutch pack that I have on Kubota and for sure that is not the case with your 1715.

2. I would do exactly what you suggest as far as further dis assembly for inspection. I think something has some fore and aft movement causing disengagement of gears. You do need new gasket to replace when you take PTO final shaft out. Hopefully this is the work you have to do only once. I have not done this wok myself but I think there is a retaining snap ring that holds driving and driven gear inside of the ORC assembly. Perhaps you can take it off to visually inspect the ORC inside. Please take some pics and post as I think it will be valuable to have here for all to use.

3- One of the Guys also commented if you could visually see the PTO is coming to stop. BY the way,you most probably know , if you clutch fully your pto will stop in transmission driven pto type. With PTO lever engaged and tractor in neutral the PTO should continue spinning.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

Thanks, I will be sure to post pictures so the next guy that has this issue has more of an idea as to how to fix it. Hopefully I can get this done this weekend. When the pto is engaged I have observed the output shaft while running the main clutch with my hand it starts normal speed for about half a second, then runs real slow with no torque. When it is running slow I can stop it with my hand and the pto lever does not move as it slows down my theroy is the only reason it is spinning at all at that point is due to the hydrolic coupling within the orc that you described in an earlier post. This only happens when the orc in immersed in fluid. Either the sprags are worn from years of use or the inner or outer race is worn or all 3 which would be worst case I will post pictures of the parts once I remove them, then take them to the local dealership for inspection if I can't find an obvious defect. All will be added to the thread.

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks, I will be sure to post pictures so the next guy that has this issue has more of an idea as to how to fix it. Hopefully I can get this done this weekend. When the pto is engaged I have observed the output shaft while running the main clutch with my hand it starts normal speed for about half a second, then runs real slow with no torque. When it is running slow I can stop it with my hand and the pto lever does not move as it slows down my theroy is the only reason it is spinning at all at that point is due to the hydrolic coupling within the orc that you described in an earlier post. This only happens when the orc in immersed in fluid. Either the sprags are worn from years of use or the inner or outer race is worn or all 3 which would be worst case I will post pictures of the parts once I remove them, then take them to the local dealership for inspection if I can't find an obvious defect. All will be added to the thread.

Joe, please be careful grabbing the final PTO shaft. Your luck and stupid thing might decide to engage fully and wrap your arms around it. I would use a piece of 2x4 and long enough, on side on the ground and the opposite side held by my hand against the rotating shaft to see if I can slow it down. It so much sound like it damaged or worn out. take notice of for-aft movement of the shafts if they could potentially uncouple gears.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

The countershaft that is driven by the orc and drives the final pto shaft has some movement along its axis, the orc also moves about the same amount, I do not think that this was the case before I split the tractor though. I am hoping inspection will reveal the source of the play. The pto drive gears are about 1 inch thick and the movement is about 1/8th on an inch so I am skeptical of that causing the disengagement, especially when running with no load. Disassembly is planned for tomorrow morning. I plan to take pictures of everything that I would have liked to have seen before attempting this project. Hopefully I can find something that needs fixin so that I can begin reassembly.

 

[JC-jetro]

Good luck.:thumbsup:

 

[joe12185]

Got the orc out, this is a picture of the orc and the updated shaft that is driven by it. The updated shaft goes through the inner race and is supported by two bearings inside the outer race.

 

[joe12185]

This is a picture of the orc disassembled, there is some discoloration on the sprags, looks to me like rust? In the third picture you can see the inside of the outer race, and the places where the additional bearings go.

 

[joe12185]

I rinsed the parts in some k-1 kerosene, the bearings seem perfect, however when I rinsed the sprags very fine metal chips came out, I tried to capture them in the sunlight. I also wiped the outer race out with a towel and the towel was shiny when I was done, I am not sure if this is a indicator of wear of the sprags, outer race or inner race or all 3. I am wondering if the fine metal shavings were causing the orc to slip when it was immersed in oil? As I stated earlier in the thread the orc seems fine when not in oil, however as soon as I fill the rear end with fluid the pto does not work correctly. I am curious what your take is on this, and do you think this is the source of my problems?

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe, can you put the orc in a vice sandwiched between tow pieces of wood facing up. Can you then fill the inside full of oil and then try to rotate the inner race. it should turn in one direction and not on the opposite, that might give us some clue.

I there a retaining snap ring inside outer race of ORC for further dis assembly. I can not see the metal shaving is picked up from the bottom of the diffy housing to the inside of ORC. I wondered the grab teeth (don;t know what they are called) are rounded off.

JC,


Edit . just notcied you broke a part the ORC. I take my question above back. we'll go back to review the pics closely.

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I'm bamboozled sitting in my chair, can you see tell tale sign of metal eroding from the sprags. Can see by hand if the the sprags makes interference with the outer race? Can the sprag move in and out by centrifugal force to grab. Everythig looks so pristine. I wish I could have something more solid to offer.

Jc,

 

[JC-jetro]

This is a picture of the orc disassembled, there is some discoloration on the sprags, looks to me like rust? In the third picture you can see the inside of the outer race, and the places where the additional bearings go.

On the first pic of the clutch, can you hold the orc clutch by hand and use the splined shaft from orc and insert it in the sprag clutch, then can you observe what happens when you turn splind shaft cw or CCW? what happens to sprags? do they move in and out? any play there?

JC,

 

[joe12185]

If you expand my picture of the sprags in the black tub of kerosene then zoom in you can see the glint on the metal shavings in the light, and now that I think about it I bet the fluid I changed last year had the same metal in it and that was why it was a kind of sparkly grey color. On the shop towel is in the first picture from post #51 you can see what a quick wipe of the inside of the outer race turned up, expand the picture and zoom in you will see the shine of metal shavings. I think that there must be some wear on either the inner of outer race, I have yet to inspect the inner race, I bet if I just replace everything in these pictures it will fix the problem. I bet that the inner race has worn to the point that when the pto spins at operating speed the sprags cannot grip it firmly enough and the pto looses power. the bearings are pressed on the inner race I need to be able to pull one of them off without damaging it to inspect the inner race, then I can measure the races with a caliper and see if they are out of spec, provided I can find the dimensions somewhere. I will post a picture of what I find when I get that bearing off.

 

[joe12185]

I reassembled the orc after cleaning with kero, placed the outer race shaft in a vise tightly, put the countershaft in it and filled it with the fluid that came out of the tractor. I grabbed the countershaft with a rag over the gear that drives the pto shaft with both hands and it functioned correctly, slipped in one direction and locked up in the other, I was not able to get it to slip, only able to twist the orc outer race in the vise. I am considering cleaning out the transmission really good with diesel to wash out all the sludge in the bottom and reassembling the tractor with new fluid and hyd. filter to test the pto and see if cleaning the orc out fixed the problem. as far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with the orc so reassemble and test, if the issue isn't fixed look somewhere else because we know it is not the orc. Thoughts?

 

[JC-jetro]

I have to come up with the same conclusion you have Joe, like I thought being immersed in oil should not effect the orc and it appears it work like it should after the vise test. The only things I can think off;

1- somehow the sliding gear jumps off and the pto handle stays in the same spot with detent mechanism engaged, How? Hve no idea. On the pto gear engagement fork (sliding gear), do you a pin that keeps fork from sliding on the shaft? usually the hollow pin has a twited wire going thru the hole and wrapped around the shaft to keep it from coming apart, did you see that?

2- Again it might indicate a clutch slippage, let say for locomation you need a certain amount of torque. if clutch plate is worn out or throwout bearing is riding on pressure plate fingers then you might not full torque available. Now if you combine torque needed for pto depending implement type plus torque for locomotion might be bigger for or clutch can handle causing slippage. Tiller for sures take a bunch of torque.

3- did the implement you used have sli clutch or shear pin, with slip clutch it may be slipping there. I think you said that you actually observe final pto shaft to slow down and then come to stop.

It would be curious if you put it all together and it starts working without problem and not ever know why !!

JC,

I reassembled the orc after cleaning with kero, placed the outer race shaft in a vise tightly, put the countershaft in it and filled it with the fluid that came out of the tractor. I grabbed the countershaft with a rag over the gear that drives the pto shaft with both hands and it functioned correctly, slipped in one direction and locked up in the other, I was not able to get it to slip, only able to twist the orc outer race in the vise. I am considering cleaning out the transmission really good with diesel to wash out all the sludge in the bottom and reassembling the tractor with new fluid and hyd. filter to test the pto and see if cleaning the orc out fixed the problem. as far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with the orc so reassemble and test, if the issue isn't fixed look somewhere else because we know it is not the orc. Thoughts?

 

[joe12185]

I have made plans with my bud to reassemble the tractor next saturday to the point where we can fill it with fluid and test the pto, clutch slippage unlikely because the pto did not work correctly even when not hooked to an implement. The skiding gear is attached solidly to the linkage, I do not see a wire, but the gear won't move if the linkage is not moved. I have watched the pto stop while the tractor was still in motion and there was nothing that changed bout how the tractor was running to let me know that the brush hod was no longer turning. I'm going to get the exact fluid from the dealer and all the gaskets during the week this week. If the pto works when I put it back together I am going to say it was a combinaton of the old fluid, water and the metal flakes that I cleaned out. After cleaning the orc and bearings with kero, I have reinstalled them into the case and rinsed the whole thing out with diesel to get rid of the remaining sludge that was in the bottom of the case and transmission. The brush hog is not equipped with a slip clutch, only a shear pin. Do you know if there is a hyd filter that I can get from napa or another auto parts store that will work for my tractor?

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I have changed min hyd fluid once and did not use NH OEM oil. They all claim to be nh-134 compatible and I don't know enough chemistry to verify it on my own. I bought quarts of OEM from NH dealer and it was not prohibitively expensive. I think you should eliminate oil problem possibility going to OEM oil.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

Exactly my thinking. I think the cost is about an extra 30$ to go with the NH fluid at this point that is nothing in my book. I read a different thread on here that was explaining the difference between OEM and universal fluid, the universal fluid has a lot more additives in it to cover all the applications it says it can, the OEM only has the additives specified by the manufacturer, so the thought is all that extra stuff in the universal fluid may be causing the issue.