Ford 1700 starting problems

[cjfling]

Hi all,

This is a repost in the Ford section of the original post I placed in the repairs section. Ford 1700 starting problems
I just bought a "slightly" used 1979 Ford 1700 tractor. It had some obvious things wrong and some not so obvious. I've had to replace the battery and will have to put all four tires on at some point. The current issue is that it won't start. With the new battery, when I hit the key, I could see the fan/crank/etc. turn about 20 degrees and stop. After checking connections, replacing the battery cable clamps, and verifying 12volts at the solenoid, I put 12volt from the battery directly to the solenoid. I could hear a spinning sound. At this point I took the starter in to the local parts house and they said something about one part working, but the other not. They had difficulty finding a reasonable replacement and so I had it rebuilt locally. He replaced the solenoid, brushes, some other minor stuff, painted/cooked the inside coating, and painted the outside case. When I picked the starter up, the guy hooked it up to a battery and showed me it engaging and spinning. After reinstalling the starter, I had the same results but noticed the alternator was really hot to the touch. I couldn't keep my hand on it. It doesn't get hot until I try to crack the engine. Now I'm wondering if there is a short inside the alternator that is draining enough power that the starter doesn't have enough power to crank the engine?

Thanks for any advice and comments,

Jason

 

[RobertBrown]

could be a short in the alternator, or it could be a short anywhere and it would cause the alternator to get hot. Is there any arc when you reconnect the battery cables to the battery?
If not then maybe you could get the alt tested at a parts store. It should cost less than the starter. Use the numbers on the alt to find a replacement. I would not shop it as a "ford 1700 alt" you will pay more for it.

 

[JC-jetro]

Jason,

Sequence of event does not seem right.

1- by putting voltage on the solenoid it causes the plunger in the solenoid to move forward engaging starter gear with flywheel
2- second action of the solenoid is when it reaches it's final travel it activates a switch that turn the power motor to turn.
3- now gears (flywheel & starter ) are meshed and power is going to motor causing it to spin and consequently flywheel and then hopefully engine start.

I think when he bench tested it, he put the juice directly to the starter motor cause it to turn. He should have tested the solenoid to see if it picks up. The starter should not get hot to the touch, something is shorting out, the hot starter to touch is abnormal. i would the starter back and have him show you solenoid operation and starter turning. I hope you did not wire it incorrectly back on the tractor . Did yo take a pic before or after or marked the wires with a note to self?

JC,


Just FYI

 

[cjfling]

could be a short in the alternator, or it could be a short anywhere and it would cause the alternator to get hot. Is there any arc when you reconnect the battery cables to the battery?
If not then maybe you could get the alt tested at a parts store. It should cost less than the starter. Use the numbers on the alt to find a replacement. I would not shop it as a "ford 1700 alt" you will pay more for it.

On the advice of Randy41 in the original thread (Ford 1700 starting problems), I tried to crank it with the alternator disconnected, but do the same result... it barely turned the motor. I did have the alt tested and they said it was bad, but he said like Randy41 it should crank without the alt. So I still have a ground issue or something else. Problem with the replacement alt, is I can't read the info. on the original one other than it's a Hitachi. New Holland shows two part number for the 1700 and for my '79 model as being SBA185046071. All the ones I'm finding online and at the local auto parts have only 3 wires, two that go together in a plastic connector and another to a screw terminal. My original has 4 wires, two that go to the plastic connector and two that go to individual screw terminals. I don't know if one is a ground or not. The only nearby NH dealer says they can't get it. On the NH website, other dealers have it new($860) and reman($250). Sounds like I'll be making a short road trip.

Thanks.

 

[cjfling]

Jason,

Sequence of event does not seem right.

1- by putting voltage on the solenoid it causes the plunger in the solenoid to move forward engaging starter gear with flywheel
2- second action of the solenoid is when it reaches it's final travel it activates a switch that turn the power motor to turn.
3- now gears (flywheel & starter ) are meshed and power is going to motor causing it to spin and consequently flywheel and then hopefully engine start.

I think when he bench tested it, he put the juice directly to the starter motor cause it to turn. He should have tested the solenoid to see if it picks up. The starter should not get hot to the touch, something is shorting out, the hot starter to touch is abnormal. i would the starter back and have him show you solenoid operation and starter turning. I hope you did not wire it incorrectly back on the tractor . Did yo take a pic before or after or marked the wires with a note to self?

JC,


Just FYI

JC,

Thanks for your input and pictures. I agree with your 1,2 & 3. The alt is what is getting hot and not the starter. The rebuild guy tested the starter in front of me and I saw him put 12 volt to the solenoid. I saw the plunger extend and then the motor start spinning. As part of his rebuild, it was a new solenoid. Visually it's the same starter you have complete with the green name plate except my starter has fresh paint (ha ha). I'm pretty sure I got the wiring right, but I'll use your photos to double check. The one wire I couldn't remember was the 12 volt from the battery and when you put it on the wrong post, the start engages on contact (don't ask me how I know that). Have you found all the grounds one yours? Mine's pretty dirty and in a shed with no light. Would help to know how many and locations?

Thanks

 

[randy41]

it could also be the key switch is faulty.

 

[cjfling]

it could also be the key switch is faulty.

If it was the key would I get no activity at all? Because in my case, it do get noise and slight movement in the fan, belt, and engine.

Thanks

 

[randy41]

i have a 1710 tractor and what you describe happening to yours (the click and some action for a split second) used to happen to mine. i changed out the key switch and haven't had that problem since. must have been a short in the switch. there's a thread with a lot of key switch info somewhere. sorry i couldn't find it.

 

[rayikeo2]

Here is a link to pictures of the inside of the ignition switch and an explanation of what is does. There are four internal contacts and there can be corrosion on any or all ot them to cause starting problems. The switch is not serviceable. It controls the start aids, pre-heat and voltage to the solinoid which then directs power to the starter. If the switch doesn't activate the solenoid the starter will not turn. Look at the dark corrosion in the contacts pictured. Sometimes they will make contact and sometimes not. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...52-1700-ford-ignition-switch-replacement.html

 

[cjfling]

i have a 1710 tractor and what you describe happening to yours (the click and some action for a split second) used to happen to mine. i changed out the key switch and haven't had that problem since. must have been a short in the switch. there's a thread with a lot of key switch info somewhere. sorry i couldn't find it.

Oh OK, thanks for the clarification. Do you recall what you paid for it? Did they have to give you a new key with it or will one key fit them all?

 

[rayikeo2]

Oh OK, thanks for the clarification. Do you recall what you paid for it? Did they have to give you a new key with it or will one key fit them all?

On ebay you can get a ignition shipped to you for $70. It comes with 2 new keys.

 

[rayikeo2]

Buy a Ignition switch here for $70. Ignition KEY Switch Ford Tractor 1510 1600 1700 1710 1900 1910 2110 SBA385200331 | eBay

 

[cjfling]

Here is a link to pictures of the inside of the ignition switch and an explanation of what is does. There are four internal contacts and there can be corrosion on any or all ot them to cause starting problems. The switch is not serviceable. It controls the start aids, pre-heat and voltage to the solinoid which then directs power to the starter. If the switch doesn't activate the solenoid the starter will not turn. Look at the dark corrosion in the contacts pictured. Sometimes they will make contact and sometimes not. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...52-1700-ford-ignition-switch-replacement.html

Thanks for the response. Every time I hit the key, I get the same response which is seeing/hearing it start the crank for a spit second and stop. I see the fan and such move. Do you still think the switch could be the culprit there? Also, I have question on the glow plugs. It's 100+ here right now and so should I need the glow plugs? If so, do you just turn the key to the start position and wait for the light to come one? I never see the glow plug light come on no matter how long I wait. I do see the other light come on the same gauge come on. Can't remember what it represents...12 volt maybe?

randy41 thanks for mentioning the article and rayikeo2 thanks for posting it to this thread!

 

[cjfling]

On ebay you can get a ignition shipped to you for $70. It comes with 2 new keys.

Thanks. NH wants almost $100.

 

[rayikeo2]

Thanks for the response. Every time I hit the key, I get the same response which is seeing/hearing it start the crank for a spit second and stop. I see the fan and such move. Do you still think the switch could be the culprit there? Also, I have question on the glow plugs. It's 100+ here right now and so should I need the glow plugs? If so, do you just turn the key to the start position and wait for the light to come one? I never see the glow plug light come on no matter how long I wait. I do see the other light come on the same gauge come on. Can't remember what it represents...12 volt maybe?

randy41 thanks for mentioning the article and rayikeo2 thanks for posting it to this thread!

There is no light on a 1700 for the glow plugs. There is a coil under the hole where it says start aid. The coil turns red like a light bulb filiment after you turn the key left and hold it left for about 15 seconds. So no other light. When it is 100 deg you will not need the glow plugs unless the tractor fails to start after 5 seconds of cranking and only if engine is cold.. When tractor is warm from running do not use start aid to restart after turning off and restarting while still warm.

 

[cjfling]

There is no light on a 1700 for the glow plugs. There is a coil under the hole where it says start aid. The coil turns red like a light bulb filiment after you turn the key left and hold it left for about 15 seconds. So no other light. When it is 100 deg you will not need the glow plugs unless the tractor fails to start after 5 seconds of cranking and only if engine is cold.. When tractor is warm from running do not use start aid to restart after turning off and restarting while still warm.

Thanks again for your knowledge/response. I do remember it being a picture of a coil now. I'll try the key to the left and see what happens. With this info. from a previous post "I get the same response which is seeing/hearing it start the crank for a spit second and stop. I see the fan and such move." Do you still think it could be the switch?

 

[rayikeo2]

I had to replace the key switch on mine too. 30 years puts a lot of corousion in the switch.

 

[randy41]

i got mine from weavers for $38 plus shipping. compactractorparts.com. it is a kubota switch but exactly the same as my original. i'm just guessing that the switches are the same for the 1700 & 1710. i see that they have alternators too.

 

[cjfling]

I took Randy's suggestion and ordered the switch and alt from Weavers/compactractorparts.com. They are kind of an "offline" operation and so we'll see how that goes. The salesperson told me there wasn't really any warranty on the new parts I ordered, but that he could list a 60 day on the alt for me. I kind of wonder how they sell the stuff so cheap and I guess b\c there is no warranty liability?

 

[jones6780]

Before I bought parts I would isolate the problem. I would disconnect everything from the starter, clean and replace only the battery leads. Check the battery connections and the ground connection. I would then use a jumper/screwdriver to check starter operation. If it doesn't turn over you still have a battery/grounding/starter problem. If the starter works move to the next item.

Russell