Fireplace advice, Part 2

[EddieWalker]

About 2 1/2 years ago, I started a thread asking for advise on what I could use to put a fireplace in my home. At the time, I was limited to what I could do because of what my ex wife wanted and our goals at that time. Since then, things have changes and I no longer have a wife, or anybody offering what they want. Until recently, I was still going to build it the way she wanted because it's what I put all the time into figuring out and planning towards.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/related-topics/115372-fireplace-advice-appreciated.html

Then I had a flash and realized that I might actually want a free standing, wood stove. A week later, Northern Tool sends me a sales catalog of fireplaces and I see several for $600 plus shipping and the chimeney. I have the perfect corner for this, and lots of wood that I could burn on my land. I used to like spiltting wood, but don't know if I will any more or not. Of course, I might just buy a splitter and make it simple.

I'm not wanting anything fancy, just a heat source, glass doors to see the flames and a blower to heat the house. I'm thinking about Northern Tool for this, but since it's mail order, I don't know if it's any good or not. Some of their stuff is great, others are not so good.

I've installed a few in houses that I flipped, and bought them from Tractor Supply. I never used them, but never got a complaint or call back on them. I don't care for Tractor Supply any more, but wont let that stop me if they have the best deal out there.

For those of you with free standing wood stoves, or if they are called something else, what can you tell me to look for? Where did you get yours? What do you like about it, and what do you hate? Really, just anything that might be useful for me to decide on what to buy.

I also don't know what the requirements are for flooring and walls around them. This will be in the corner, and I currently have engineered wood floors and sheetrock walls.

I'm thinking about sending the exhause out the side wall, and then up. I have a metal roof, and can go through it if I have to, but would realy prefer not to. Anything to pay attention to when doing this? I'm sure there will be instructions and I can always call the manufacturer if I run into problems, but would really like to hear from those of you who have actually done this and know what to do first hand.


Thank you,
Eddie

 

[Egon]

Eddie, become aware of efficiency standards for the stoves as they are not all built equally.

Usually the stove builder will supply you with clearances which become secondary to the codes of your area.

Freestanding I'd prefer one that has an ash box in the pedestal.

Also do a lot of investigating about stove size. Too big or too small have their negatives.

All this information will be available on the internet. Just start with stoves and then get into individual builders.

Watching the flame is addictive!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[IH3444]

Eddie if you buy a high quality wood stove that meets the present energy star standards for a biomass stove, you can get a tax credit of 30%.

You can read about stoves at Hearth.com - Information on Gas Fireplaces, Wood Stoves, Gas Logs, Pellet Stoves, Fireplaces, Chimneys and Hearth Products.

Some quality wood stoves come to mind, Joutol, Harmon, Hearthstone.

Look also at the soapstone stoves, there are good at retaining heat long after the fire burns out.

 

[Mousefield]

I have a wood stove in my shop and one in our house. A few things that you should watch for, other may have already suggested this.
Size the stove to the house. If possible try to have the chimney go straight out of the roof. If you can it will probably have a better draught, less chance to creosote up the chimney and the chimney will be easier (usually) to clean. Make sure you have enough clearance from the walls and you may have to put something under the stove like brick or tile. Check with the building inspector as what the requirements are. Improperly installed it may void you house insurance if you should have a fire due to the wood stove. Always burn dry wood, ours it at least 3 years old, I have a 5 year supply cut,split and stacked under cover.

 

[Lloyd_E]

Can't go wrong with Vermont Casting, Jotul or Pacific Energy.
Ditto Egon. Look at BTU's and sq ft per stove. If the stove is too small for overall house size you will burn it out quickly. If it is too large you may create a possible house fire scenario
by under burning and creating a creosote build up.

Look at attachable shelves, possible cooking area etc. Take advantage of the heat source. Nothing like coming in after a long day of felling trees, bucking wood and splitting, to settled down to a stew cooked in a cast iron pot over a wood stove or a big 'ol pot of beans!

Make sure you wood is at least 2 years old and buy a stove pipe thermometer. Also a metal ash can with top and always empty it far away from your house. Keep a fire extinguisher close at hand as well.

I 'sweep' my own chimney twice a year. Once before fall start up and once during the winter.
I usually get less than a pint of ash and that amount of the ash comes from the top 3-6 feet of the pipe.

Keep us posted and have fun... nothing like a wood fire!

 

[Dallas_Lilly]

Personally I think the pipe running up the outside of a wall never looks good. They almost always turn black and ugly IMHO. I think it would be worth it to go through the roof.

I have had a Pacific Energy and now own a Regency wood stove. Both have been great stoves, the Pacific Energy just wasnt a big enough stove. Quadrafire (sp) is supposed to be one of the better stoves made but are spendy.

I had an ash pan and do not now, I really really wish i I still did. It makes a world of differnce in ash clean up. I hate cleaning ashes right now because you get a light ash dusting of everything within a couple of feet of the stove.

We currently have a blower, I do not use it much except when bringing the temp up in a really cold house, other than that it is annoying to me to listen to the hum of it.

The clearances dont seem to matter much on the newer stoves as the older stoves. My newest stove when it is hotter than a two dollar pistol on the top and front can still be brushed against on the sides and back. I wouldnt hold my hand there for very long but its not as hot as one would imagine.

From your previous threads my guess is this wont be just a stove install and will include making the house a nicer place with some type of rock behind it so you shouldnt have a problem with clearances.

 

[Redgoatea]

I love my free standing wood stove but it's getting older and I looked into replacing it this summer. Didn't get around to it but I'd be very leery of an efficient unit for $600.

Put me down for another vote for venting out the roof. I know it's a hassle but most wood stove vendors carry flashing that is molded to fit onto your metal roof. Plus in my house I have very high ceilings so there's 15' of vent flu from the stove up to the roof. That 15' radiates out quite a bit of heat in addition to what the stove does making it even more efficient. 7

 

[MossRoad]

We bought a Napoleon free standing stove two years ago. It works very nice for us. We installed it in the basement and ran the pipe straight up through the first floor, attic and roof. Everyone says straight up is better for the draft, and who are we to argue? :laughing:

I would suggest going in person to a fireplace/stove store locally and talking with them. There are so many different brands, types, etc... that is is good to see them in person. Also, some types of chimney pipes are not sold to the general public. A factory trained installer has to install them.

I added up all the prices for buying the stove and chimney pipe over the internet and installing them myself. Then I talked to the local fireplace/stove store. They had the same prices as the internet, had what I considered to be better chimney pipe for the price I was quoted and they installed the stove (carried it into the basement and set in place), cut the holes in the floor, ceiling and roof, installed the chimney pipe, flashed the roof, everything, for $500.00. That was 2 guys all day with a warranty on their work. I couldn't beat that. :thumbsup: They even lit the test fires, cleaned everything up and came back and checked on it a week later to make sure everything was okey dokey. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

All I had to do myself was frame and box in around the chimney pipe where it came up through the first floor. They had a steel box set in the floor that had the proper dimensions for clearance from combustibles with the chimney pipe coming through the center. Then there was a matching flange on the ceiling with the same dimensions. All I had to do was frame on the outside of those two squares and I was done. Very easy. :thumbsup:

As for blower, we did not get one because the stove is in a small room in the basement. Instead, we put a duct over the stove to the first floor of the house. We put a high temperature in-line fan in the duct. We have a portable greenhouse thermostat for heating or cooling that we plug into the wall and plug the fan into that. We set it to cool the basement. So, when the basement room gets up to 78 degrees, the fan comes on and blows the heat upstairs. If the fire goes out and the basement cools down below 78, the fan turns off and no cool air is pumped upstairs. It works pretty slick.

 

[CurlyDave]

I heated with wood in a freestanding stove for 25 years in the SF CA Bay Area.

In your climate, I would go with a gas or propane free standing stove over wood.

Until you have lived with wood, you just don't appreciate the mess associated with bringing logs into the house, burning them and removing the ash. There will always be 10 to 20 times as much dust in your house than without a wood stove.

Gas actually has a nicer fire, and is clean.

 

[dmccarty]

We bought our wood burning stove from Wood Stoves Cookstove Sale Amish Coal Stove Furnaces Fireplaces Free Standing MT. Annette was one of the owners who was very friendly and very helpful. We ended up needing some 45 degree SS chimney pieces and she got them to us ASAP.

We bought this model, Obadiah's - Osburn 2200 Bay window woodstove

I heats our 2500 sf home and we have 10 foot ceiling and big windows/doors aka holes in the wall. We can keep the living room at 80 while the rest of the house might be at 70. If the temp drops into the low 20s then the house will be a bit colder. Not the semi tropical heat that SWMBO prefers.

The model we have has little side light windows which work well since the stove sits at a 45 degree angle in a corner. I can see the fire while sitting in the study.

When we built the house we had a 6 inch PVC pipe run under the slab from outside the house to the top of the hearth were the stove sits. The pipe brings in outside air for the fire. Works real well.

Best thing I bought for the stove was a stove thermometer which took forever to find. Found one at TSC. It really helped me burn the stove more efficiently.

This stove does have the ash bin at the bottom. Never use it. Just easier to open the door and shovel the ash into a bucket. :thumbsup: I have learned the Way Of The Ash Shovel. :laughing: One CAN take hot ashes and coals out of the fire without smoking or ashing up the house. But one has to be Zen like. :laughing:

Welders gloves help one be in a Zen state.

Ashes go into the garden. Usually after being put in a bucket with a lid. Amazing how long those coals can stay hot....

We do get some ash around the stove if I don't open the stove door just right. But to be honest I don't really see it anywhere else in the house. We have dust now and its from us and the dog. Far more of this dander than the ash.

Keeping the chimney in the envelope of the house is the best thing to do to get/keep a proper draft. Chimneys on an outside wall will be cold and can be hard to draft when starting the fire. When starting the fire, turn off the clothes dryer....

Later,
Dan

 

[EddieWalker]

Thanks everyone for your help. I went to a fireplace store yesterday and was dissapointed in what they had to offer. Neither of the guys working there were very helpful and didn't have any experience with wood stoves. They really seem to be focussing on the patio, outdoor aspect of things.

My original thought, and reasoning in my other thread about this was to go with gas due to the ease and simplicity of it. Of course, it was going to entail a major remodel of my living room, and a ton of money in all of that, but the end result was probably going to be fairly impressive. Or not. LOL

Now my thinking is that this is just for a few months of the year when it gets cold here. Even then, it's just cold at night and in the mornings. I don't really need to heat the house in the morning since I just get up, get dressed and leave for work. Same thing with during the day. So it's just in the evenings that it will be used, and only on those days it's cold outside.

Then the other concern is when I lose power. I wanted gas because I could also have hot water when the power is out. That would have been very nice last year, but for all the expenses involved in changing over to gas, I can just go get a hotel room and take a shower there, or go to a friends house.

The free standing wood stove seems to make the most sense. Minimal changes to the living room to install it. I've also realized that I don't have to do anything to my walls. I spent hours looking at pictures online and never found anything that I liked as much as sheetrock walls behind it. I'll put tile down under it, and leave the walls alone.

I've also come to realize that running the pipe straight up, through the roof, is the best way to go. Thank you for that suggestion.

The guys at the fireplace store said to use single wall pipe in the house, then double wall through the roof and outside. I've installed a few wood stoves in houses that already had them, and I was replacing old with new, and I used double wall all the way from the stove, into the ceiling box, and then outside. Was I being wasteful? Does it matter? Is there an advantage one way or another?

I've also been reading reveiws on a variety of websites. Napolean seems to be a very good stove that is consistantly one of the better ones, if not the best on some sites. I also read the reveiews where I can find them from people who actually own a wood stove and the brand they have. I've scratched the Northern Tool stoves off my list. While inexpensive, they also have a list of issues that come up over and over again in the reviews.

My current favorite wood stove is the Napolean 1450. Wood Burning Stove: 1450

Eddie

 

[homedad]

Single wall inside the living area allows more heat to leave the pipe and heat the living area. I also have a sidewall chimney in my shop and if it's cold outside and the chimney is cold it can be a bear to get it to draft. You end up with some smoke in the house. My new house has a tulikivi but it's probably way overkill for texas and a major engineering project to install.

 

[CurlyDave]

The guys at the fireplace store said to use single wall pipe in the house, then double wall through the roof and outside. I've installed a few wood stoves in houses that already had them, and I was replacing old with new, and I used double wall all the way from the stove, into the ceiling box, and then outside. Was I being wasteful? Does it matter? Is there an advantage one way or another?


In CA and OR, there is a code requirement to use single wall pipe in living spaces and double or triple wall outdoors.

I have had installers, store clerks, and building inspectors try to tell me why the code is written this way, and every one of the explanations has set off my BS detector.

 

[dmccarty]

The requirement to use single wall chimney in the house is odd. Ours is double wall. From the top of the stop to the top of the chimney. Not sure I would want single wall....

The double wall pipe in the house is warm enough.

Our fireplace is in a corner. The hearth is built up about 16 inches or so which puts the wood stove door at the right height for viewing when sitting on the couches. Just like the TV.

The top of the hearth has black marble, Ubah Toobha is how it is pronounced surely not spelled. The hearth is made up of brick and the walls behind the stove is double wall brick. The brick helps heat our bedroom and the study since the brick wall is exposed in those two rooms. The brick is the same as used on the exterior of the house so we like the looks. It is fireproof and it adds mass to hold the heat.

We have talked of adding another stove to the house for those periods when it gets down into the 20's and the teens. Since the floor is finished concrete we don't have to worry about the floor being fireproofed but the wall would be an issue. I know I saw some sort of fireproof wall board like stuff you could use around the stoves. It was not thick. I thick one could put tiles on the material or leave as is. But it has been awhile since I looked at this stuff. We just decided to not spend the extra money for another stove for the few days a year we would need the second stove.

Later,
Dan

 

[Matt_W]

I have a FPX36 ZC insert which I love but.....
There are few things I am not getting from this

I would first start with the highest EPA rated stove. The higher the effieciency the less heat loss and work it will be splitting wood for the season. (less wood will be needed)

If you are trying to burn for heat 24/7 you need to consider burn time, mine is rated at 10 hours but I am lucky if I get 4 from it. Don't get me wrong my fireplace will heat my 2500 sq ft home as long as I am there to feed it but... In the morning it is out...
There are so many factors for this it is very unclear on exactly what you will have once the fireplace is installed. Ex: type of wood, chimney draft/over draft (which may be my case), firebox size etc..

Also power outage is something great to consider.
My insert has a fan and when the power is out I get very little heat from it.

Catalytic converter or not has to be considered. Mine has one and it is more maintenance cleaning it. Also more $ when you need to replace it but it does provide more heat by burning the un-burnt smoke. Some vendors claim the same without it.

I think a free standing stove does provide more heat than an insert and also continues to heat while the fire is out from the radient heat of the cast.
Also can defeat the power issues with no fan.

I cannot give you any brands but a few things to consider.

 

[Molerj]

Until you have lived with wood, you just don't appreciate the mess associated with bringing logs into the house, burning them and removing the ash. There will always be 10 to 20 times as much dust in your house than without a wood stove.

Gas actually has a nicer fire, and is clean.

I don't want to be a pessimist here but..I agree with Dave. Freestanding woodstoves are messy. Stove pipe cleaning is messy. Wood smell is something you will get used to. Used a Vermont castings, Vigilant, for yrs. Sold that and bought a vermont castings gas stove. We use the 100 gal. tank. It is used just to feel comfy, so it isn't used as a primary source of heat.

 

[Egon]

Think Eddie is thinking more about ambiance and convenience rather than a full time hard heating stove for -40C conditions.

The stove he likes should be top line!:thumbsup:

 

[EddieWalker]

Guy on Craigslist, about half an hour from me, has Napolean 1400 for sale with pipes for $800 firm. He says it's two years old and he want the money to buy a flatbed. I'm going to take a look at it on Sunday.

Eddie

 

[MossRoad]

Guy on Craigslist, about half an hour from me, has Napolean 1400 for sale with pipes for $800 firm. He says it's two years old and he want the money to buy a flatbed. I'm going to take a look at it on Sunday.

Eddie

Eddie,
I have a 1400 here in South Bend, IN. All black with none of the fancy trim upgrades that are available. Those can quickly double the price of the stove, but man, they look nice! I like it a lot. The window is large and it really throws a great light on the room. Just beautiful to watch. We have used it 2 winters. I will be firing it up within the next week or two. Last year I lit it on October 1st and burned continuously till April.... 6 months, every day except for 4 when we were away or it was warm and I shut it down to clean it out or clean the chimney.

A few things I will mention for you to consider....

If the stove is cold, it takes it an hour or more to warm up the stove. It is lined with brick and it just takes a while to heat those bricks and the steel jacket up. Once it is hot, however, it stays hot!

If you burn good, dry wood, the front glass is self cleaning. If you burn not so dry wood, the front glass will stain up. The easiest way to clean it is to take some crumpled up paper, dip it in water, then dip that in the ashes. Use that to scrub the window glass. It cleans with little effort. No muscle required. It smears it up, but it knocks everything off. Just take a clean paper towel, wet it and wipe it down a second time and it is crystal clear. Trust me, it works great! :thumbsup: Of course, only do this if the glass is cool.

The rear of the stove sits just inches from a brick wall.. farther from combustible material. I do not know the side clearances. It is on the website. The rear and sides of the stove do not get anywhere near as hot as the top and front. The stove has a steel jacket around the sides and top so cool air flows up the sides and back under the jacket and by convection goes out the front and the top front vent. They make a fan kit that goes on the rear bottom and forces more airflow up the jacket and out the front. We do not have that kit. If I had it in a large room, I would look into it.

The ash tray in the pedestal is really convenient. It has a built in lid to close when carrying it outside. Nice to keep ash from flying around. I think I only emptied it half a dozen times over the winter. The stove is really efficient and our locust wood burns up almost completely with very little ash. You will get ashes around the inside of the pedestal and that has to be cleaned once in a while. If you empty the stove through the ash door into the ash can gently, this will reduce the amount of ash that flies around under the pedestal.

Get a good fireplace thermometer. I keep it under the grate in the top of the stove. I can read it through the grate. Experiment with temps to get most efficient burns for you and the wood you are using. Too cold makes creosote in your stove pipe, chimney and top cap screen. Too hot and you will expand your stove pipe and that isn't good, either. :laughing: You need the thermometer to help you adjust the single air control on that model stove. I start mine with it wide open. Once it is crackling and hot, I start moving the air control in. I find I can keep it on two and a half or three for the most heat without overheating the stove. Once it is going good, I can shut down the air control all the way and then back open to just one half of a point. That will keep the fire burning for as long as possible without reloading. On days when it is 30 or warmer, I make one fire around 6pm and then throw on a few more pieces around midnight and shut down the air control. That's it. No fire needed in the morning because the house is still 74 or warmer. If it is in the 20s, I'll load it at midnight. If it is below 20, I load it again first thing in the morning and then shut down the air before we leave the house. Of course, every home is different, you are in a warmer climate, and your mileage may vary.

We have black double wall telescoping pipe coming up out of the stove. That allows for length adjustment and allows us to remove that section for pipe cleaning. Then there are two 45's and a straight into the ceiling box, then triple wall pipe up through the 1st floor, attic and roof. Those are galvanized, except for the piece that is outside, which is stainless as is the top cap. What I'm getting at is galvanize is cheaper than stainless and if it is not visible, then who cares. If it were in an open room, I would stick with the black double wall.

 

[EddieWalker]

Thank you for such a great reply and advice!!!!! I've exchaged a few emails with the guy who has it for sale, and he sounds legit. I always wonder about Craigslist, but have found some great deals on there, so maybe I'll get another.

Just have to wait until Sunday after noon to see what he has and to make the deal.

Thank you again, I really appreciate everything you said.

Eddie