finish mowers

[JimMc]

I don't think it's being picky at all. The fact is that there is nothing on a FC deck that is stamped. Even the parts that are formed are produced by press brake not stamping. It's not that Sicma isn't capable of stamping, but to keep costs down, they necessarily chose different technologies to produce that machine. No reflection on the quality of the finished product at all. It's a good machine and the deck is quite durable. However, it is not fair to attempt to sell a product on features it doesn't have.

There is at least one possibility that I may stand corrected. If you are saying that the product has been redesigned for 2004 models and is now produced by deep draw stamping, I'll accept your word on that. But the picture above clearly depicts the welded contruction of all the FC finish mower decks imported from Sicma to date.

 

[nomad]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It's not that Sicma isn't capable of stamping, but to keep costs down, ... (they make weld deck)... )</font>

weld deck should cost more than the stamped if we also consider time and labor costs in production of one deck. On the other hand, producing one stamped deck will take much less time and much less labor cost. The only disadvantage of stamped deck is its initial high tooling cost and if you make different models of mower with different deck shapes, initial investments on decks will be very high. But once toolings of stamped deck are made the rest is much easier than welding.

So, the only reason for less stamped decks in the market is; its inital high tooling cost of stamped deck, especially if you are making different size mowers. I have a recommendation here; only one stamped deck is made and that same deck can be used at different sizes of mowers. Anyway. deck size is independent of finish mower working width. Also, if this deck is made of plastic by plastic injection moulding, no deep drawing machinery which is a hard work will be necessary during the production process. Ps: are Midwest's finish mowers with stamped decks?

 

[JimMc]

Tooling, while not inconsequential, is not all the costs involved. The size of a machine required to deep draw this style deck is enormous. In addition, the steel required is more expensive as well. It is more expensive to produce a stamped deck of this style independent of initial expense. In this case you can't look to stamping to decrease cost of production. The time component is a savings, but even over a production run of 500,000 decks, stamping would be more expensive.

The Midwest mid-mount and rear finish mowers are welded decks as well.

You mention using the same size deck for all different widths of mowers? How do you propose this be accomplished? Plastic decks, I don't think that will work, let alone sell. People don't even want the plastic belt guards found on some mowers, let alone a deck which is the only thing standing between the user and a rock thrown off a blade at 17,000 feet per minute.

 

[sweettractors]

<font color="blue"> nothing on a FC deck that is stamped. Even the parts that are formed are produced by press brake not stamping </font>

I may have not been clear--My point was that The FC machines are the best of both worlds with Stamping/forming/ welding all working together--I have seen your machines and they are pretty close to the Sicma/First Choice designs (except they are welded, I think you said?)--I think we and other First Choice owners will take that as a compliment to the Sicma/First Choice basic design concept-- I know that you can list many differences in Midwest vs Sicma/First Choice and Midwest Grooming mowers designs--However--They are very similar in appearance and I am sure they will prove very reliable machines as time goes on--Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment Co *Since 1977*

 

[nomad]

I am considering that deep drawing machine as a part of inital investment too. Once you have this machine and stamping toolings the production will be faster (low time cost) and will be less expensive comparing the production of welded deck mower that requires at least 3 different machining process (cutting, bending and welding). However, all these are valid for well-equipment big mower companies who can sell many many mowers every year. Relatively smaller companies do production planning on smaller quantities or maybe, even on order-based production plannings. For them, welded finish mowers will be much better and less expensive, of course.

I mentioned using the same size deck for different widths of mowers for those smaller manufacturers who can't invest much money on many deck toolings for many mower sizes.
How can this be accomplished? I have an idea, but need to think more on that.

Why not plastic? Can't be made only because of stones? What if I add a small rock rake in front of finish mower that will block the rocks entering into the mower deck? It can be made like seen in attachment picture I played with. No? Only this rake (in red) is made of steel and mounted in front of completely plastic deck. With some supports in such a deck (added in plastic tooling), plastic deck too will be strong enough. Ps1: is this 17,000 fpm the speed at the tip of blade?

 

[Villengineer]

1) Different burn outs would be cheaper than trying to alter a stamping to fit different sizes. Additionally, once you split the stamping to narrow it, you're back to welding anyway. You'd also most likely have problems with hole locations and many other fit and finish problems.

2) There are a lot more issues with using plastic in addition to containing projectiles. There are the forces that each spindle and the gear box place on the deck. Decks where the metal is torn or cracked at a spindle seems quite frequent. Plastic would be at a big disadvantage here. Overall rigidity of the deck would be an issue unless you either had a very thick cross section or lots of molded ribs.(The more complex it is the $ it becomes) After all the deck is a major structural member of the mower. Impacts from stationary objects would most likely end the life of the deck quickly. We've already heard from at least one user who has hit stuff a few times. Then there are the affects of the environment on the plastic. What's going to prevent your rake from folding back under the deck or simply pushing itself up over the debris? Chances are you'd either let the debris in or fracture the front edge of the deck and now your rake is in the blades. There are many more that I could point out. There are plastics available that might be able to handle some of these issues, but very few if any that could handle all of them. There simply isn't a plastic yet that can replace steel, especially in bang for the buck, when it comes to equipment like this.

 

[nomad]

Idea of stamped deck with changeable size and plastic deck was only raw idea that should be thought about them more. So, lets pass these two idea for the moment.

The idea of this fine tine rake now sounds easily applicable after a little further study. Don't you think such a rake will not perform well? You fear its tines can be broken and go into blade area? Well, then, I make the rake tines made of plastic. Anyways, the rocks in a field where a finish mower will operate will be small size rocks. You know the road brush tines (small diameter plastic tines/pipes) - they can do the work. If these plastic tines are broken, and enters the blade area, then it won't be a problem for the blade - it will cut them too.

Ps: Once this problem of rock entering the blade area is solved, then we can go further to talk about the plastic deck (maybe, "semi-plastic".) but this plastic deck requires more study.

 

[Villengineer]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You fear its tines can be broken and go into blade area? )</font>
Actually, with a plastic deck I was more concerned with the entire front lip of the deck + the entire rake ending up in the blades.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Anyways, the rocks in a field where a finish mower will operate will be small size rocks )</font>
1) Not necessarily
2) Small rocks make wicked projectiles and could easily pierce a plastic deck
3) I've seen too many people cross gravel drives with the mower at cutting height while it's running.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You know the road brush tines (small diameter plastic tines/pipes) - they can do the work )</font>
Take a shop broom and just push it around. Notice all the debris that you leave behind, particularly small heavy objects. Now use the broom correctly and notice that it doesn't happen. That's why large brush or brooms counter rotate, if they didn't they would accomplish much. Not to mention the aforementioned users who cross gravel drives. They would drag stone into the yard, thus resulting in them remove said brush or rake.
Like we've stated in previous threads, with liability laws, even if you had such a device you couldn't 100% guarantee that debris wouldn't get into the deck and it would only take 1 incident to put you out of business.

 

[yellowsocks93]

For the most part my JD deck is all pressed. The only welds I see on it are holding on the gauge wheels and the end by the discharge shoot is welded down. The mower deck press in Horicon, Wisconsin goes up three stories and down 3 stories. I believe that is why one co worker told me. Pretty impressive. I must say that a tiny spot of paint fell off my mower deck so JD is not perfect in anyway. I wish they would paint the mowers good like they used to.

 

[JimMc]

We spend quite a bit of time in and under both Toyota and Nissan body stamping lines. Those stamping presses are huge. The press to do the JD deck would need even more tonnage, since there are more high crown areas on JD's mower deck than most auto fenders, plus the thickness of the deck is half again the thickness of automotive sheet metal. Your size description is probably fairly accurate.

The JD side discharge is a good example of a stamped deck. But then, JD is rarely accused of halfway doing something. The technology involved is what is never seen. The design of the dies and the metalurgy alone would run most companies over budget.

 

[yellowsocks93]

Do you work for both Toyota and Nissan or kind of move around where you are needed? With all the money JD has made over the years I think they can afford the best technology out there.

 

[edv]

Jim..

I have personally seen the JD Deck press in operation...At the time I understand this was the largest press in any of Deere's factories..


EDV

 

[JimMc]

We currently have projects in house for both Toyota and Nissan in addition to our own design projects.

Ed, it's good to hear from you. I was beginning to wonder if you were still in Europe. The longer we stayed, the more expensive it got, but the Euro really shot up after we got home. Makes me wish I had converted every cent I could get my hands on to Euro's! Will we be able to enjoy the pleasure of your company at Louisville next month?

 

[nomad]

So, what? Debris or, to say better, rocks entering the steel deck and them being thrown at 17,000 fpm and hitting the deck must be producing very much noise. If the field is so rocky, then this noise produced by hitting rocks to the deck will be continuous high amplitude sound waves at more than 100 decibels that is ear disturbing and is this permitted by liability laws? When you design a finish mower you do it considering the field is not much rocky and the stones in the field are small sizes. But when I propose a plastic deck you change the field and you say design of that (plastic) finish mower should also consider fields with much rocks with big sizes. Design parameters should be same when designing a steel and a plastic deck mower. and I don't think steel deck mowers are being designed according to the fields with much rocks of big sizes. If we are going to design such a finish mower which will work in heavy rock field, then the steel deck will fail faster than a, say, "laminated tire" deck. Yes, when saying plastic I am not only mentioning only some known plastic materials. Laminated tires made of used tires too can be used as deck materials efficiently. With such a deck, no noise of hitting rocks to the deck, impact force by the rock hitting the deck will be damped and hence its speed of rock will be slowed, etc etc. See many advantages of such a deck here that a steel deck designs haven't taken into account. Rock rake made of plastic tines on the front edge of mower will only help more on preventing the rocks entering the blade area so that much less number of rocks will be thrown at 17,000 fpm, that is very dangerous to welcome the rocks to the blade rotating at about 3000 rpm. Single incident will put all current finish mowers out of the business.

Ps: lets not forget that current basic deck designs of finish mowers are probably based on older rotary cutter deck designs which were made some decades ago. Since then, no significant progress in the deck of finish mowers.

 

[cj7]

wow! guys I never thought we were going to redesign the mower .. cool though.. I just wanted some user info on how well they work on yards that have some sharp angles to work with.. ex..... traveling up a slope then to a level area etc..


btw. interesting concept using plastic. I am sure it would need to be of a high grade to withstand the abuse. It would lighten the load on the hitch .. prolly a good thing..

 

[nomad]

cj7, such discussions will correct misknowledges in the field and will enlighten the users. For ex., in this thread, now you know that stamped decks aren't superior over welded decks if their welds are made very good. However, we may not still say this surely because discussion participants were only dealers selling FC products and a manufacturer himself (JimMc) of Midwest mowers which both are welded mowers. If a stamped mower dealer or manufacturer participated the discussion, he/she would tell us real advantages of stamped decks over welded decks and we would not say "stamped deck is much superior than the weld deck" as a misknowledge. Farming field is full of technical misknowledges and we are questioning them here if really so or not. So, I thought I added real helpful contribution to your thread with a simple questions.

 

[Egon]

I be confused again! Allways under the impression that the proper finish mower was a reel type that cut the grass leaves nice and clean.

Egon

 

[nomad]

Yes, your impression is correct - a proper finish mower must cut the grass short enough, nice and clean. But we questioned in this thread which is proper mower; welded deck or stamped deck - or, does it really matter. Not much thing to get confused.

 

[edv]

Plastic decks are nothing new to the mower industry...Honda introduced a polymer (plastic) deck years ago....It never became popular...It had flex...plastic sides would wear quickly when it came in contact with concrete curbs..etc...

There is new grass cutting technolgy which was developed in Germany. In many applications...road side mowing in high density areas...this type of mower is required to be used (Germany). The metal housing looks like a flail mower..it has a rotor shaft with a spiral auger type flange on the rotor, and every few inches there is a small cut out..approx. 1/4 inch.

The rotor shaft cuts the material very fine...Stones are no problem with this type of cutting...like any good idea there are some disadvatages...slow speed, and only able to cut light material.

Just thought the forum readers would appreciate this info.

edv

 

[HayDR]

edv,
Has any of the new tillers, that replaced the 550 JD/Howard tillers, hit the dealer lots yet? Does JD now have an exclusive on the Sicma CS tillers?

We just wonder if First Choice, IMC/WAC, & Big B will be able to sell the CS Tillers under their private labels?