grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Jordan sales also takes care of my kioti. Great batch of people.
FEL Hydraulics Just Died
- Thread starter mmranch
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OP
mmranch
Gold Member
@ptsg
I have the service manual for the TYM T603. I have found no mention of this 3024CT PTO gear as the manual doesn't really cover the engine internals, etc.
I have a parts manual for the TYM T603. I have found a picture of the gear and bearing however I'm not seeing any part #s for these items (or for any items in this parts manual... I usually have to use the pictures & numbers and give this to my dealer for them to figure out the part #s). Also, the drawing is not really correct regarding the gear itself (screengrab attached).
Where/what method did you use to find the TYM part # for the gear?
The link you gave does seem to visually be the correct parts except the drawing doesn't do a very good job of showing the teeth on the gear. The drawing shows teeth perpindicular to the gear and the real gear has teeth that are slightly at an angle to the gear face (not sure what the angle is).
Thanks again.
I have the service manual for the TYM T603. I have found no mention of this 3024CT PTO gear as the manual doesn't really cover the engine internals, etc.
I have a parts manual for the TYM T603. I have found a picture of the gear and bearing however I'm not seeing any part #s for these items (or for any items in this parts manual... I usually have to use the pictures & numbers and give this to my dealer for them to figure out the part #s). Also, the drawing is not really correct regarding the gear itself (screengrab attached).
Where/what method did you use to find the TYM part # for the gear?
The link you gave does seem to visually be the correct parts except the drawing doesn't do a very good job of showing the teeth on the gear. The drawing shows teeth perpindicular to the gear and the real gear has teeth that are slightly at an angle to the gear face (not sure what the angle is).
Thanks again.
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Last edited:
ptsg
Super Member
That parts catalogue for that tractor seems that it was put together in completely crazy way. They show the parts diagram for the engine in the beginning but then you have to scroll all the way down to get the list of what is what.
Basically, you take note of that number on the upper left corner of the image shared, which is FIG 108. Then scroll all the way down on the parts catalogue and look for the Fig 108 on that list. By then you can see the actual parts list that should be under the page you showed in the first place.
Hopefully it made some sort of sense. By the way, they call it: "Gear, pump"
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
ptsg
Super Member
No worries.
Too bad they didn't add a picture of the gear on the website. That would clarify the teeth situation. On the other hand, the drawing on the website may not be accurate even though it should.
LD1
Epic Contributor
The gear teeth at an angle are called helical gears.
There isnt too many gears on anything that are straight cut anymore. Straight cut gears are noisy.
Ever drive a manual trans car? Reverse is usually a straight cut gear due to the sliding engagement method. Notice how you hear gear whine when in reverse but not any of the forward gears.....thats because forward gears are helical cut.
There isnt too many gears on anything that are straight cut anymore. Straight cut gears are noisy.
Ever drive a manual trans car? Reverse is usually a straight cut gear due to the sliding engagement method. Notice how you hear gear whine when in reverse but not any of the forward gears.....thats because forward gears are helical cut.
DonRybak
Gold Member
mmranch, I'm not going to be much help on the hydraulic issue but this might help with the bearings. Way back in the late 70's I was stationed in Spain and I shipped a 1955 Chevy over. It so happened that a rear wheel bearing went out on it. The base auto service center said they could order the part from the states but the store manager gave me the address of a bearing supply store in Madrid. I went there with the old bearing and the lady said she could cross reference any bearing as long as the numbers weren't written in something like oriental writing. Along the edge of the bearing race she found the number, looked in a catalog and took off to the back. Next thing I know she's coming out with bearing in hand. They even had the individual balls for bearings that looked to be 10 inches or so in diameter. Maybe you can get that number off the bearing and find it through a supply source in the US. Good job finding the problem by the way.......Don
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
An update...
I've ordered various parts and we'll see when I get them and if they are correct. (Who knows how long this is gonna take). Drive gear from CAT, pumps from TYM, bearings, seals, etc.
I've taken apart the main pump and all looks good except the worn splines on the main gear shaft. If I had a new main gear shaft with good splines, I could reassemble and the pump would probably work fine. I've reached out to several machinists in my area but none want to/can do the job.
Attached is an image of the main gear shaft.
Now I'm in wait mode.
Thanks again.
I've ordered various parts and we'll see when I get them and if they are correct. (Who knows how long this is gonna take). Drive gear from CAT, pumps from TYM, bearings, seals, etc.
I've taken apart the main pump and all looks good except the worn splines on the main gear shaft. If I had a new main gear shaft with good splines, I could reassemble and the pump would probably work fine. I've reached out to several machinists in my area but none want to/can do the job.
Attached is an image of the main gear shaft.
Now I'm in wait mode.
Thanks again.
Attachments
oldnslo
Super Member
Mike T
Typically the gears in pump are replaced in pairs since they wear in. If you replace just one gear it may wear in or wear out both gears.
Typically the gears in pump are replaced in pairs since they wear in. If you replace just one gear it may wear in or wear out both gears.
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
Thanks again to all for the ideas on this!
OK, I received the new drive gear from CAT and it is the correct gear (even if the parts technical drawings were incorrect). It has the proper 39 helical teeth and the side holes have the proper 10 teeth and 12 teeth. (I also ordered 2 of the new gears).
Now I am waiting on the new gear pumps from TYM. One was in-stock and the other was backordered. No info on when I might receive these pumps.
I mated both old pump's splined shafts with the new drive gear and even though the splined shaft on the main pump is very, very worn... the spline shafts are turned by the gear without slippage.
Since I don't know when the new gear pumps will arrive... I am considering rebuilding the tractor with the new gear and old pumps to try to get it working for the summer. The splines or gear may give out after a week, a month or a year... who knows?
Wish there was some glue I could squirt on the splines to fill voids and bind the splines into the gear hole better. Thought about welding on top of each spline to raise the worn spline areas then grinding out the grooves again. But the splines are small so it might not be possible. Thought about wedging some metal into the hole with the splines for a tighter fit. Thought about drilling a hole through the gear and splined shaft and using a roll pin to lock the shaft and gear together... not sure if the gear bearing can be pressed on to the gear with the shaft fixed to the gear.
May just have to rebuild and hope for the best!
Thanks again.
OK, I received the new drive gear from CAT and it is the correct gear (even if the parts technical drawings were incorrect). It has the proper 39 helical teeth and the side holes have the proper 10 teeth and 12 teeth. (I also ordered 2 of the new gears).
Now I am waiting on the new gear pumps from TYM. One was in-stock and the other was backordered. No info on when I might receive these pumps.
I mated both old pump's splined shafts with the new drive gear and even though the splined shaft on the main pump is very, very worn... the spline shafts are turned by the gear without slippage.
Since I don't know when the new gear pumps will arrive... I am considering rebuilding the tractor with the new gear and old pumps to try to get it working for the summer. The splines or gear may give out after a week, a month or a year... who knows?
Wish there was some glue I could squirt on the splines to fill voids and bind the splines into the gear hole better. Thought about welding on top of each spline to raise the worn spline areas then grinding out the grooves again. But the splines are small so it might not be possible. Thought about wedging some metal into the hole with the splines for a tighter fit. Thought about drilling a hole through the gear and splined shaft and using a roll pin to lock the shaft and gear together... not sure if the gear bearing can be pressed on to the gear with the shaft fixed to the gear.
May just have to rebuild and hope for the best!
Thanks again.
ericm979
Super Member
Is there a generic pump that will work? I think it's unlikely that the pumps are specific to this tractor.
jigs_n_fixtures
Veteran Member
Try googling for hydraulic pump, and portions of the TYM part number. The TYM part numbers for the Mitsubishi engine in my T233, just have three digits added in front of the Mitsubishi Number.
Gregster613
Platinum Member
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- 273 TYM. 2009 //Yardmachines 7 Speed Shift-on-the-goScotts L2048
Jigs, I read this from you in another thread and I do appreciate knowing about the first 3 numbers. However I'd add that they just may be specific to the design of the part for TYM machines.
I say this as I replaced my water pump with a pump that matched the main numbers (much cheaper also) but it then required me to "modify" my pully assembly to mate up.
For my purpose it works fine but for an hydraulic pump - I'd be very wary. Just a caution thought here. Greg
I say this as I replaced my water pump with a pump that matched the main numbers (much cheaper also) but it then required me to "modify" my pully assembly to mate up.
For my purpose it works fine but for an hydraulic pump - I'd be very wary. Just a caution thought here. Greg
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
Thanks for the ideas!
I would LOVE to put a different gear pump(s) on the engine. But at the moment... it's not possible. Here's why.
The Perkins built CAT engine has a housing hanging off the side of the engine. This is where the CAT drive gear lives which drives the pumps. The gear drives 2 pumps (one on each side of the gear). Only CAT makes/sells this gear. The gear has a 10-tooth hole on one side, and a 12-tooth hole on the other.
Gear pumps available with a 10-tooth splined shaft are rare. Gear pumps available with a 12-tooth splined shaft are rare. Much more common are shafts with 9-teeth or 13-teeth.
In the world of gear pump flanges... there are standards which are supposed to make the process of replacing pumps easier. For example, there are standard 4 bolt flanges and standard 2 bolt flanges in different sizes (for example, there is a standard SAE B 4 bolt flange which has a 5" bolt circle). The CAT housing which houses the gear has a non-standard 4-hole flange with a 3.5" bolt circle. NONE of the available generic gear pumps that I have found have a flange which will mount to the CAT housing flange.
Only the original pump manufacturer (Joyang in Korea) has a website with very detailed technical specs including showing pump dimensions and options for 10-tooth shaft and special Perkins mounting flange. I have found no place I can buy their pump/parts/seal kits directly in the US. I have tried contacting the company and have had no response. (I assume TYM will be sourcing the pump from Joyang in Korea again). They are the only place where I have even found a reference to the special 'Perkins Flange'.
If there was a generic pump (with 10-tooth splined shaft) whose assembly bolt pattern (and shaft location) matched my pump's bolt and shaft locations... I could possibly put the new pump body on my old Perkins flange but who knows if it would all seal up properly and work.
Then there's the issue of plumbing. The current setup has steel piping which goes to the 2 pumps. If I was able to find a generic pump which would meet all the requirements to install... I would have to discard the steel piping and re-do the plumbing with hoses, fittings, etc. This I could probably do but it's certainly additional hassle.
Bottom line... I can find NO generic pumps with correct size, flow, with 10-tooth splined shafts with mounting flanges that are the right size or even any mention of a Perkins Flange to replace the old pump. This is also true for the other old steering pump (12-tooth splined shaft) which has a 2-bolt mounting flange (but non-standard with the flange at an angle).
If you own a tractor... I would recommend thinking about what would happen if your hydraulic pump failed (in the middle of supply chain hell) and the mountings, etc. were non-standard. You might want to order a backup pump and drive gear from the manufacturer to have on hand just in case!
Thanks again.
I would LOVE to put a different gear pump(s) on the engine. But at the moment... it's not possible. Here's why.
The Perkins built CAT engine has a housing hanging off the side of the engine. This is where the CAT drive gear lives which drives the pumps. The gear drives 2 pumps (one on each side of the gear). Only CAT makes/sells this gear. The gear has a 10-tooth hole on one side, and a 12-tooth hole on the other.
Gear pumps available with a 10-tooth splined shaft are rare. Gear pumps available with a 12-tooth splined shaft are rare. Much more common are shafts with 9-teeth or 13-teeth.
In the world of gear pump flanges... there are standards which are supposed to make the process of replacing pumps easier. For example, there are standard 4 bolt flanges and standard 2 bolt flanges in different sizes (for example, there is a standard SAE B 4 bolt flange which has a 5" bolt circle). The CAT housing which houses the gear has a non-standard 4-hole flange with a 3.5" bolt circle. NONE of the available generic gear pumps that I have found have a flange which will mount to the CAT housing flange.
Only the original pump manufacturer (Joyang in Korea) has a website with very detailed technical specs including showing pump dimensions and options for 10-tooth shaft and special Perkins mounting flange. I have found no place I can buy their pump/parts/seal kits directly in the US. I have tried contacting the company and have had no response. (I assume TYM will be sourcing the pump from Joyang in Korea again). They are the only place where I have even found a reference to the special 'Perkins Flange'.
If there was a generic pump (with 10-tooth splined shaft) whose assembly bolt pattern (and shaft location) matched my pump's bolt and shaft locations... I could possibly put the new pump body on my old Perkins flange but who knows if it would all seal up properly and work.
Then there's the issue of plumbing. The current setup has steel piping which goes to the 2 pumps. If I was able to find a generic pump which would meet all the requirements to install... I would have to discard the steel piping and re-do the plumbing with hoses, fittings, etc. This I could probably do but it's certainly additional hassle.
Bottom line... I can find NO generic pumps with correct size, flow, with 10-tooth splined shafts with mounting flanges that are the right size or even any mention of a Perkins Flange to replace the old pump. This is also true for the other old steering pump (12-tooth splined shaft) which has a 2-bolt mounting flange (but non-standard with the flange at an angle).
If you own a tractor... I would recommend thinking about what would happen if your hydraulic pump failed (in the middle of supply chain hell) and the mountings, etc. were non-standard. You might want to order a backup pump and drive gear from the manufacturer to have on hand just in case!
Thanks again.
Attachments
oldnslo
Super Member
I would be very concerned with putting the damaged pump splines in your new gear and running it that way for any period of time. My concern is the worn splines will erode the new gear and you will have to replace everything again.
10 tooth shaft is not common but is an option for different pump manufacturers. Suspect the CAT mount will be a much more challenging option to find.
hopefully parts will arrive and you can back to work
10 tooth shaft is not common but is an option for different pump manufacturers. Suspect the CAT mount will be a much more challenging option to find.
hopefully parts will arrive and you can back to work
ptsg
Super Member
Unfortunately, most tractor manufacturers won't use off the shelf hydraulic pumps. That would be to easy for the end user, right? Instead they come out with some changes that makes it pretty much a proprietary pump. Small details like making it 10 splines, while 9 or 13 splines are available almost everywhere or using that square flange mount while most have SAE mounts or the European 4 bolt style mount.
I've seen this happening a bunch of times on various manufacturers. Some good hydraulic shops are able to piece a pump together that can work but this will often increase the price exponentially.
Since we've lots of hydraulic component manufacturers in Europe, mainly in Italy, I've searched loads of catalogues of various brands of hydraulic pumps and haven't come up with anything close yet.
I've seen this happening a bunch of times on various manufacturers. Some good hydraulic shops are able to piece a pump together that can work but this will often increase the price exponentially.
Since we've lots of hydraulic component manufacturers in Europe, mainly in Italy, I've searched loads of catalogues of various brands of hydraulic pumps and haven't come up with anything close yet.
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
Thanks again to all for the ideas!
On the 'rebuild to see if it works for a while' approach... I realize that the new gear may be damaged by the worn splines. I bought 2 new gears and have new bearings pressed on both gears. If the 1st new gear is damaged, I would just use the other new gear when the new pumps show up. Wish there was something I could put on the worn shaft splines when mating with the gear which would help it hold together by filling voids, etc. High temp RTV? Guess it might get ground down and make a bigger mess than just putting grease on the splines.
Right now I'm just finishing other projects and trying to decide if I want to put the effort into rebuild now or wait. I really need to use the tractor as the work is piling up.
I have found several pumps which include the 39 tooth helical drive gear on the shaft (not sure if the gear is absolutely correct as there is little info provided) but these pump/gear setups do not include the possibility of a second pump also connected to the gear and there is no Perkins Flange offered.
Guess it's just a case of hurry up and wait. Sigh.
Thanks again.
On the 'rebuild to see if it works for a while' approach... I realize that the new gear may be damaged by the worn splines. I bought 2 new gears and have new bearings pressed on both gears. If the 1st new gear is damaged, I would just use the other new gear when the new pumps show up. Wish there was something I could put on the worn shaft splines when mating with the gear which would help it hold together by filling voids, etc. High temp RTV? Guess it might get ground down and make a bigger mess than just putting grease on the splines.
Right now I'm just finishing other projects and trying to decide if I want to put the effort into rebuild now or wait. I really need to use the tractor as the work is piling up.
I have found several pumps which include the 39 tooth helical drive gear on the shaft (not sure if the gear is absolutely correct as there is little info provided) but these pump/gear setups do not include the possibility of a second pump also connected to the gear and there is no Perkins Flange offered.
Guess it's just a case of hurry up and wait. Sigh.
Thanks again.
oldnslo
Super Member
Honor 2G series gear pumps offer the 10 tooth spline but not sure on the Perkins - CAT flange. No clue if Honor gear pumps are of any quality or not though.
OP
mmranch
Gold Member
@oldnslo
Thanks very much for finding this. I will study the specs for this brand gear pump but I don't think this will work. At first glance, there is no Perkins flange and I have come to realize that the Perkins flange is special/required for another reason.
In addition to the 10-tooth splined shaft (sticking out the right amount from whatever flange to insert in the gear hole the right amount), the Perkins flange is special because the flange actually participates in holding the gear in the right position. The bearing on the gear (on the main gear pump side) actually inserts into the inner chamber of the Perkins flange. When tightened down, the gear is supported/positioned in the correct spot. Therefore the Perkins flange is required for the system to work. See attached image showing bearing and chamber on Perkins flange.
Looks like another flange can't be substituted.
Thanks again.
Thanks very much for finding this. I will study the specs for this brand gear pump but I don't think this will work. At first glance, there is no Perkins flange and I have come to realize that the Perkins flange is special/required for another reason.
In addition to the 10-tooth splined shaft (sticking out the right amount from whatever flange to insert in the gear hole the right amount), the Perkins flange is special because the flange actually participates in holding the gear in the right position. The bearing on the gear (on the main gear pump side) actually inserts into the inner chamber of the Perkins flange. When tightened down, the gear is supported/positioned in the correct spot. Therefore the Perkins flange is required for the system to work. See attached image showing bearing and chamber on Perkins flange.
Looks like another flange can't be substituted.
Thanks again.
Attachments
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