FEL Hydraulics Just Died

[mmranch]

Thanks for the ideas.

The FEL valve block is most easily accessible as it's just under the cab stairs. Also the FEL was the only thing being used when the hydraulics died.

When I look at the FEL valve... it's basically just a block with a bunch of hose connections (none of these hose connections are the relief valve). There are two cables entering the block on one side (which move the 2 spools inside). Opposite the two entering cables are two 1.5" protuding caps with allen screws (probably with springs underneath the caps to make the spools return to position). These are not the relief valves?

Then there is a single 1" protruding thing with a nut-like head on it. It could be a cap. My guess is this would be the relief?

If I remove the nut or cap... what's underneath? Is fluid going to come out?


Thanks again.

 

[mmranch]

I found a picture of the PTO & FEL blocks.

 

[oldnslo]

Mm
I didn’t go back and read all your posts but I believe you stated PTO did not work. If this is correct then problem is not FEL relief since that is after PTO block.

 

[Fxfymn413]

If the pump failed, and it's sounding more and more that it did, there is a good probability that there are no metal shavings in the filter since the pump could not deliver them to the filter post failure.

When you drain the system I would place a fine mesh funnel under the drain to see if any metal turns up.

Based on Mike0000's excellent posts I'd say the best bet is to remove the pump.

 

[ovrszd]

If possible, I'd loosen a pump outlet connection and crank the tractor. If it bathes you in hydraulic oil, the pump is good.

 

[mmranch]

Thanks again for all the ideas.

I'm about at the point where I need to drain the oil and remove the pump to inspect it.

In the installed configuration, the inlet (larger pipe) to the pump is on the top of the pump. The outlet (smaller pipe) is on the bottom of the pump. If I were to loosen the bottom outlet (not remove it)... I assume that oil would start leaking out since the system was not yet drained. If I started the tractor and the pump was good... a huge amount of oil would shoot out making a big mess (which I don't really want). I'm a bit leery of doing this.

When I drain the hydraulic oil, the main oil plug (there is a smaller, second plug) has a magnet built into the plug. It always has a small amount of fine powdered metal on the magnet. Will see if it has more metal than normal.

Since it's very tight where the main pump and steering pump live... I would hope to only unbolt the main pump and see if there are obvious problems. This may not be possible and the whole assembly may have to be removed.


@oldnslo
Regarding relief valves... the PTO does not work and is first in line after the main pump. From your description, it sounds like if the pump was good and the PTO relief was NOT open... the PTO should work even if a later relief valve (FEL relief) was open? If this understanding is correct, sounds like the PTO relief would be the problem since all other valves are after that. I will look more closely at the PTO relief valve but I'm a bit unclear as to how to see any potential broken spring.

Thanks again.

 

[mike0000]

I cant comment on your tractor, my tractor did not leak much hydraulic oil at all when I removed the pump. To test mine I did disconnect the hoses, but obviously I had complete failure, no pressure to spray oil.

I tested by disconnecting both hoses (suction on top, pressure on bottom, like yours), I cobbled up a hose and a funnel to connect to the suction side for testing the pump. A bit Rube Goldberg but served my purpose. I added oil to the funnel and started the tractor, I got no movement from the oil level.

Mike

 

[mike0000]

I was testing outside, in a gravel area.
How about moving the tractor outside for testing, no mess inside? May not be an option, if you can’t raise loader, (jack and furniture dolly?).
My failure did not contaminate the hydraulic oil, if anything it was the engine oil where any shavings would have ended up.

Mike

 

[ericm979]

If the pump is not already above the level of the oil in the transmission, you could jack the front end up a little more or lower the rear.

 

[ovrszd]

I cant comment on your tractor, my tractor did not leak much hydraulic oil at all when I removed the pump. To test mine I did disconnect the hoses, but obviously I had complete failure, no pressure to spray oil.

I tested by disconnecting both hoses (suction on top, pressure on bottom, like yours), I cobbled up a hose and a funnel to connect to the suction side for testing the pump. A bit Rube Goldberg but served my purpose. I added oil to the funnel and started the tractor, I got no movement from the oil level.

Mike

That was my suggestion. When you completed your test there was no doubt your pump had to be removed.

I'd hate to remove the pump and still not know what my problem was.

 

[mike0000]

I disconnected hoses and put zip lock bags over the ends then zip tied them tight around the hoses.

Mike

 

[mike0000]

That was my suggestion. When you completed your test there was no doubt your pump had to be removed.

I'd hate to remove the pump and still not know what my problem was.

I agree ovrszd,

I did find that my pump drive shaft mates perfectly with a 5/8” socket, depending On OP skill set/tools on hand a good 1/2” drive drill can be used for testing purposes. I did sacrifice a socket extension to use to drive the pump, cut it off so it could be inserted in the drills chuck. This was after getting the new pump.

I was concerned, in my case that I had some sort of blockage that caused the damage to the drive gear.
I sure didn’t want to do all the work only to have the same failure down the road.
I found that I could ”clock” the new pump 90 degrees and connect it to the hoses. With this setup I tested the hydraulics with my drill, with a zip tie on the drills trigger, I could run the pump and test the front end loader. That drill had enough power to test all functions.

Mike

 

[ovrszd]

I agree ovrszd,

I did find that my pump drive shaft mates perfectly with a 5/8” socket, depending On OP skill set/tools on hand a good 1/2” drive drill can be used for testing purposes. I did sacrifice a socket extension to use to drive the pump, cut it off so it could be inserted in the drills chuck. This was after getting the new pump.

I was concerned, in my case that I had some sort of blockage that caused the damage to the drive gear.
I sure didn’t want to do all the work only to have the same failure down the road.
I found that I could ”clock” the new pump 90 degrees and connect it to the hoses. With this setup I tested the hydraulics with my drill, with a zip tie on the drills trigger, I could run the pump and test the front end loader. That drill had enough power to test all functions.

Mike

Good stuff Mike!!!!

 

[mike0000]

Good stuff Mike!!!!

Thank you, I’ve had a lot of help from this forum and it’s members.

Here‘s a shot of my tractor‘s two pumps, hopefully similar to OP’s. PS on left Hyd. On right. Drive gear inside gray housing between pumps. It is a lot of work, getting to that gear.

 

[ovrszd]

Thank you, I’ve had a lot of help from this forum and it’s members.

Here‘s a shot of my tractor‘s two pumps, hopefully similar to OP’s. PS on left Hyd. On right. Drive gear inside gray housing between pumps. It is a lot of work, getting to that gear.
View attachment 740019

Yes, looks like it would be.

 

[mike0000]

Void to right is where that drive gear would reside, whole front cover of the motor is off in this picture.

 

[mmranch]

Thanks again for the photos... it helps a lot.

I have found that my main pump inlet and outlet connections have a small test port on each... so testing the output of the pump is fairly easy in that regard (just have to contain whatever mess is made). But I haven't done that yet.


In my service manual, the PTO troubleshooting section says 'check the fuse'. The PTO block has a solenoid on it with a wire going to it. At the moment... I haven't found the PTO fuse yet. It's not in the main fuse box under the hood. Thinking it might be under the dash. Not sure if a blown PTO fuse would affect the flow to the FEL valve, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[mike0000]

Thanks again for the photos... it helps a lot.

I have found that my main pump inlet and outlet connections have a small test port on each... so testing the output of the pump is fairly easy in that regard (just have to contain whatever mess is made). But I haven't done that yet.


In my service manual, the PTO troubleshooting section says 'check the fuse'. The PTO block has a solenoid on it with a wire going to it. At the moment... I haven't found the PTO fuse yet. It's not in the main fuse box under the hood. Thinking it might be under the dash. Not sure if a blown PTO fuse would affect the flow to the FEL valve, etc.

Thanks again.

You’re welcome, keep us informed on your progress. Having the test ports should help a lot.

Mike

 

[oldnslo]

Mm,
A blown PTO fuse would not prevent flow from going to the FEL or other functions. It would just prevent the solenoid operated valve that engages the PTO from operating.

 

[mmranch]

OK, it appears that the main pump is not pumping.

I just pulled the plug out of the test port of the main pump outlet. A small stream/drip came out of the test port (I had a clear plastic deflector in front of the opening just in case lots of fluid would come out). I then started the engine. The small stream/drip then stopped down to just an occasional drip as the engine ran. So basically nothing was coming out.

So now I will move on to removing the pump. Turns out... the steering pump and main pump are held in place using the same 4 bolts. So I will have to disconnect both pumps to see what's going on. My guess is it could be the same situation as Mike0000's problem.

Thanks again to all.