FEL hydraulics have failed

[zing]

Hi all, would appreciate any advice you have as I know the very basics of how hydraulics work but am not competent enough to diagnose with certainty what is wrong when something goes wrong. Tractor is a 1986 Case 1394, but I have only had it for 5-6 years and do not know its history. The FEL may have been added on after purchase by a previous owner and may not even be a CASE loader or hydraulics.

The issue
The loader has never been very strong when lifting, but that has not been a big issue since most of my work is with the PTO for bush hogging. Moved about a dozen tandem loads of dirt over the last couple of months though and I could see that it was even weaker at the end then it was when I started that job. Then this morning the loader just gave out completely. Worked when I started the tractor and lifted the loader a couple of feet to be able to drive, then went out to bushhog. WHen I got to the field I tried to raise the loader higher and nothing. Tried the lever forward and the loader dropped, but would not come up at all any more. Loader will not raise and bucket will not tilt upward. Had to drive backward all the way from the field to the shed, dragging the bucket on the ground. 3 pt hitch still raises and lowers normally, and front power steering work fine. The fluid in the resevoir is at the full line on the dipstick. Here are my questions.

1. Is this loader powerred from the same pump as the 3 pt?
The loader valve has 4 hoses that go forward on the loader arm and two supply hoses that come back to just under the right hand side of the seat. Does that mean they are from the same pump as the back end hydraulics for the 3 pt? If that is the case then I presume my hydraulic pumps is not the issue, and that the filter is not clogged. (I will be honest though, that I don't even know where the pump and the filter are located.) Here is a pick of the hoses that supply the FEL valve.

2. My guess is that the issue is the loader valve. Do you agree?
The hoses that supply fluid to the FEL valve are getting warm when the tractor is running but the hoses to the loader arms and the bucket are not, so it seems like the fluid is getting to the valve but then going nowhere. To me that suggests that the FEL valve is the issue, but I am definitely not sure. Is it possible that there may have been air introduced to the system and maybe it needs to be bled? Is that what these two flat nuts are for that are underneath where the hoses connect into the valve?

3. If it is the valve, can that be repaired instead of replaced?
A friend who has more knowledge than I said that the valve rings can go and cause it to just let the fluid bypass. Is this correct, and does it make sense for both the bucket and the arms to stop working at the same time when this happens? He was just trying to help by giving a diagnosis over the phone, so it is hard for him to be sure, but he said that if I took apart the valve by taking the bolts out where the plungers go in, I could change the o rings. Does this sound correct to you guys, or is it at least the most logical starting point?

4. If we are in agreement to this point, what is the best way to take apart the valve, from the plungers in the front held in by two bolts, or the shrouds in the other end held in by 4 bolts? Pictures below?

5. How do I identify the valve so I can get the right o rings? Are any of of you able to id it from the pics below, or is there another way to id it?

Sorry for the long post, but I thought too much info was better than too little. Thanks for any help that you are able to give!

 

[zing]

Oh, and I am aware that the 4 FEL hoses are REALLY split and are a failure waiting to happen. THe reason I have not replaced them are both because I am afraid of what they will cost, and because I am not sure if I can just replace them or if the whole system will need to be bled or something afterward. Feel free to chime in if you know the answer to that as well. Thanks.

 

[Coyote machine]

I'd start by locating the hydraulic filter you mentioned, and removing it and draining it into a clean container to see what comes out. Then replace it with a hydraulic, not an oil filter.
Also clean the valve assembly with a brush and degreaser, then air dry. The round protruding cap with 4 allen screws, just above question #5 is one of your spring loaded valve assemblies; which when carefully removed you can then inspect and clean, and see if there is any particulate matter possibly causing it to stick open. I'd take more pics and label each hyd hose as to exactly where it goes for re-assembly.
Chances are your valve body has been failing until it just gave up from worn parts/O-rings, or contamination, or both. Even if you don't figure out the exact valve mfg. you should be able to replace it, IF needed with a generic one from one of the online surplus hydraulic sellers.
Others like J_J can probably advise further on where to go, what to do....

 

[SSdoxie]

Take the plug out where I drew the red arrow. If the valve has it's own relief it would be under that plug. Relief stuck open would give the symptom described if the valve is not plumbed in Open Center series. With only 2 hoses going to tractor, it may not be is series with the 3pt system.

 

[5030]

My only comment is you state you have had the tractor for 4-5 years anf you have no idea where the hydraulic filter is..;.. You deserve failure. Did you ever change the oil? grease it?

Gimme a break. Give the tractor a break too. Try routine service, it's a concept.

 

[J_J]

ydraulics:
Type: open center
Pressure: 2550 psi [175.8 bar]
Valves: 1 to 3
Total flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
15.3 gpm [57.9 lpm] (tandem)
Steering flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
Steering press.: 1500 psi [103.4 bar]

Install a 3000 psi pressure gage and check the pressure.

So you are saying that the 3pt works and the loader does not work.

Does that include both lift and curl.

There is one problem that I can think of that will allow the 3pt to work and the lift will not, and that is the nut that secures the cyl piston. If that nut comes off, the fluid will just recirculate through the cyl and no action will occur.

If you install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the FEL valve, you can see any pressure developed by any component in the hyd system. , and then, if you raise the 3pt to max, and you show about 2500 psi, then you know the pump is working good.

The loader valve can have several problems.

Is the FEL valve lever operated or cable operated?

You mentioned the hex plugs between the work ports. Those are load check valves, and they can fail, so check them out before tearing the valve.

The relief valve can be stuck open as someone mentioned, and fluid will pass on to tank.

The relief valve is the large tall hex capped relief valve close by the IN port or the valve.

Remove t and inspect, clean or repair or replace.

You will need to reset the FEL relief to about 2550 psi

Not all valves have o-rings that you can replace. Those o-rings are primarily there to keep dirt out, and they are not high pressure seals. If you don't have external leaks, don't mess with them.

Do the simple test first before messing with the valve.

Your valve is not stuck in the float position is it.

Is your spool moving in and out the valve equally. The float position will have a little more travel than the retract.

 

[Coyote machine]

My only comment is you state you have had the tractor for 4-5 years anf you have no idea where the hydraulic filter is..;.. You deserve failure. Did you ever change the oil? grease it?

Gimme a break. Give the tractor a break too. Try routine service, it's a concept.

Deserve failure?! That's pretty harsh; no one deserves failure just because they may be clueless. They may end up with failed components, but some have to start by learning the hard way.:confused3:

 

[JerryG]

Check the suction screen if it has one. Change the filter and you really need to change the fluid. But first of all take your quick disconnects a part and reinstall. They may look seated but may not be. If not they can flow some fluid or none

 

[oldnslo]

Since I can only see six hoses and it appears that the port labeled byd in one of the pictures is not used it would indicate that this valve is not connected in series or possibly not connected properly in series.

Zing, if you hold the lever to raise the loader and then try and raise the 3pt, will the 3pt work with a load on it?

If yes: This would indicate the 3pt running off of separate pump from FEL but not sure how they are plumbed.

If no: This would indicate both the FEL & 3 pt are on the same pump and would indicate a problem in the loader circuit. Should also eliminate a relief problem in the FEL valve since the 3 pt is down stream and it works when the FEL valve is in center position.

 

[zing]

Wow! Lots of great responses and only one judgemental bucket head! Not a bad ratio.

I will try to respond to each of your questions individually. This place is our future retirement place and other then two week's vacation I am usually only here every second or third weekend, and that is mostly spent mowing the lawn. The tractor only gets used in July and August to cut the hay fields to hopefully prevent them from turning to alders and goldenrod. From Sept to June it doesn't move. Most of the suggestions that you guys gave will take me a while to do, so if I don't post back with a result right away it doesn't mean I am not paying attention, it just means I haven't gotten to it yet.

 

[zing]

I'd start by locating the hydraulic filter you mentioned, and removing it and draining it into a clean container to see what comes out. Then replace it with a hydraulic, not an oil filter.
Also clean the valve assembly with a brush and degreaser, then air dry. The round protruding cap with 4 allen screws, just above question #5 is one of your spring loaded valve assemblies; which when carefully removed you can then inspect and clean, and see if there is any particulate matter possibly causing it to stick open. I'd take more pics and label each hyd hose as to exactly where it goes for re-assembly.
Chances are your valve body has been failing until it just gave up from worn parts/O-rings, or contamination, or both. Even if you don't figure out the exact valve mfg. you should be able to replace it, IF needed with a generic one from one of the online surplus hydraulic sellers.
Others like J_J can probably advise further on where to go, what to do....

Cleaning the filter and the valve assemblies makes sense, and is a low cost way to start. Certainly better than replacing the whole thing. Thanks.

Question for you, I see in your sig that you have a gang mower. I have seen those online used and considered them, thinking that a wide one behind my UTV would be faster than my 6 foot bushhog and I could get in the fields in the spring when they are still too wet for my 2 wheel drive tractor. How long can you go without mowing though, before they won't cut because the grass is too long? I might be able to cut a pasture or two per visit in rotation, but I would never be able to cut all of my pastures every two weeks. At best it would be every 4 to 6 weeks per field. Is that too long in between mows for them to work? Thanks Coyote Machine.

 

[oldnslo]

Zing,
I did some looking at the Case IH parts and your tractor could have a single pump or double pump both are gear pumps. They also list what is called a "combining valve". I am not sure what function this valve performs. Also showed a filter mounted on the side of the transmission housing. parts view did not state which way was the front of the tractor but I suspect the filter is on the right side but could be 100% wrong.

Do you have a service manual that would show the hydraulic schematic. It would help reduce some of the guessing as to what the problem(s) could be.

good luck

 

[zing]

Take the plug out where I drew the red arrow. If the valve has it's own relief it would be under that plug. Relief stuck open would give the symptom described if the valve is not plumbed in Open Center series. With only 2 hoses going to tractor, it may not be is series with the 3pt system.

View attachment 384952

Thanks for taking the time to edit and repost the picture, that makes it perfectly clear what you are talking about. As per the suggestions the others have made, cleaning out the valve is a good place to start, so I will be sure to pull that plug and clean out any crud in there that might be sticking the relief open.

I don't know what Open Center series means or how to make sure it is in series with the 3 pt. There is a switch that is near the spot where the two supply hoses come out from under the seat. I thought it was designed to ensure the flow ran in the right direction for the implement to function properly, but perhaps it is used to ensure that externally connected hydraulics run in sync with the 3 pt then?

 

[zing]

My only comment is you state you have had the tractor for 4-5 years anf you have no idea where the hydraulic filter is..;.. You deserve failure. Did you ever change the oil? grease it?

Gimme a break. Give the tractor a break too. Try routine service, it's a concept.

blah, blah, blah. Thanks for the help skippy.

 

[zing]

ydraulics:
Type: open center
Pressure: 2550 psi [175.8 bar]
Valves: 1 to 3
Total flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
15.3 gpm [57.9 lpm] (tandem)
Steering flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
Steering press.: 1500 psi [103.4 bar]

Install a 3000 psi pressure gage and check the pressure.

So you are saying that the 3pt works and the loader does not work.

Does that include both lift and curl.

There is one problem that I can think of that will allow the 3pt to work and the lift will not, and that is the nut that secures the cyl piston. If that nut comes off, the fluid will just recirculate through the cyl and no action will occur.

If you install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the FEL valve, you can see any pressure developed by any component in the hyd system. , and then, if you raise the 3pt to max, and you show about 2500 psi, then you know the pump is working good.

The loader valve can have several problems.

Is the FEL valve lever operated or cable operated?

You mentioned the hex plugs between the work ports. Those are load check valves, and they can fail, so check them out before tearing the valve.

The relief valve can be stuck open as someone mentioned, and fluid will pass on to tank.

The relief valve is the large tall hex capped relief valve close by the IN port or the valve.

Remove t and inspect, clean or repair or replace.

You will need to reset the FEL relief to about 2550 psi

Not all valves have o-rings that you can replace. Those o-rings are primarily there to keep dirt out, and they are not high pressure seals. If you don't have external leaks, don't mess with them.

Do the simple test first before messing with the valve.

Your valve is not stuck in the float position is it.

Is your spool moving in and out the valve equally. The float position will have a little more travel than the retract.

Holy cow J J, that is a lot of information and a lot of it is going over my head, but I will do my best to respond to your questions.
- Yes, the 3pt works but the loader does not lift or curl. Nothing from FEL is working, but there is no apparent strain on the system, no leaks anywhere. It worked fine to lift the bucket when I started the tractor, but then when I got to the field and tried to raise it higher nothing would raise anymore.
- "the nut that secures the cyl piston" I don't know what you mean here. Are you talking about a nut on one of the hydraulic cylinders for the FEL? Is there a cylinder piston somewhere else? I would check this, but I have no idea what you mean.
- "Is the FEL valve lever operated or cable operated?" THere are two levers on the FEL valve. One raises and lowers the loader arms, and the other raises and dumps the bucket.
- Load check valves are under those hex plugs that I thought nmight be to bleed the system. Got. I will check those for crud when I clean out the rest of the valve.
- Relief valve will be cleaned as per both your and ssdoxie's suggestions. I don't know how to set the relief to about 2550 psi, but hopefully that will be apparent when I take it out. Are there markings on it that indicate the psi?
- There are no external leaks, so maybe the o-rings are fine then. Hopefully a cleanup will do the job.
- Not sure what you mean by the float position, but both of the levers are moving in and out of the valve and do not seem any different from how they were in the past.

I do not have a pressure test guage nor do I know anyone who might have one to lend me. I am at least an hour from the nearest hydraulic supply store, so I think my best way to start is to clean out all of the stuff you guys have recommended. If that doesn't work I will look into renting a pressure guage and do as you suggested to confirm if the pump is working properly.

Thank you for the detailed response, much appreciated.

 

[zing]

Deserve failure?! That's pretty harsh; no one deserves failure just because they may be clueless. They may end up with failed components, but some have to start by learning the hard way.:confused3:

lol! You have my back and call me clueless in the same sentence. Nicely done, and probably not inaccurate.

 

[zing]

Check the suction screen if it has one. Change the filter and you really need to change the fluid. But first of all take your quick disconnects a part and reinstall. They may look seated but may not be. If not they can flow some fluid or none

I don't know what the suction screen is, is that a part of the filter? I will clean the filter, but fluid is quite fresh due to a recently plugged leak at the PTO.

The only quick connects I have noticed on this tractor are behind the seat, there are ports to plug in something with hydraulics on the rear. I don't have anything on there though, and never have. I will take a look tomorrow to confirm, but I think all other hydraulic connections are screw in. Cheers.

 

[zing]

Since I can only see six hoses and it appears that the port labeled byd in one of the pictures is not used it would indicate that this valve is not connected in series or possibly not connected properly in series.

Zing, if you hold the lever to raise the loader and then try and raise the 3pt, will the 3pt work with a load on it?

If yes: This would indicate the 3pt running off of separate pump from FEL but not sure how they are plumbed.

If no: This would indicate both the FEL & 3 pt are on the same pump and would indicate a problem in the loader circuit. Should also eliminate a relief problem in the FEL valve since the 3 pt is down stream and it works when the FEL valve is in center position.

It used to work, so I would think that it should be connected properly, but I will definitely try to do that thing with the valve open and lift a load on the PTO over the next few days and see what happens.

AND

Zing,
I did some looking at the Case IH parts and your tractor could have a single pump or double pump both are gear pumps. They also list what is called a "combining valve". I am not sure what function this valve performs. Also showed a filter mounted on the side of the transmission housing. parts view did not state which way was the front of the tractor but I suspect the filter is on the right side but could be 100% wrong.

Do you have a service manual that would show the hydraulic schematic. It would help reduce some of the guessing as to what the problem(s) could be.

good luck

I have both the tractor manual and the book that gives an exploded diagram of every part and how to service them. Unfortunately they are at my friend's house right now. I had a nasty leak from the PTO and a friend (the same guy who was helping me troubleshoot over the phone) pulled out the PTO and replaced the two gaskets for me. We forgot the books at his house when we trailered the tractor back though. I will be going over to get them over the next few days though. Hopefully they will help me to track down the plumbing for the hydraulics and see whether it is one pump or two. Thank you for the responses, I will let you know what I find.

 

[2458n]

Esay way to do this. Mark your hoses with masking tape and a number. Disconnect the hoses and take the valve back home with you. Go to a hyd. shop. Tell them what it came off of and they will tear it apart and fix it. Or test it first on the tractor and make sure you have pressure getting to the valve. Mine is 34 years old and the float is gone ,but it still gets used a couple of times a day. I will rember your post as I drive backwards to the shed. Goodluck.

 

[zing]

Esay way to do this. Mark your hoses with masking tape and a number. Disconnect the hoses and take the valve back home with you. Go to a hyd. shop. Tell them what it came off of and they will tear it apart and fix it. Or test it first on the tractor and make sure you have pressure getting to the valve. Mine is 34 years old and the float is gone ,but it still gets used a couple of times a day. I will rember your post as I drive backwards to the shed. Goodluck.

This is actually a great suggestion for my situation. I only have one week left of vacation and then back to the city and back to 9 to 5 for me, so I am not sure if I will get all of the things done in this list. I will have to pick up the book from my friend and get the details for the filter from the book, then pick one up in town and replace the filter some weekend when I am here. I am going to try to get some time at the valve cleanup, but when we are on vacation the kids want to go to the beach during the day and the wife gets mad at me for spending too many evenings in the shed, so I am not sure I will get it done. If I don't get it done this week I can mark the hoses and stuff rags in them to keep dirt out, then pull the valve off and take it back to the city with me and tear it down in my shed at home where I have more time. If worse comes to worse I can take it to a hydraulic repair shop where they can test it and tell me if there are any issues and fix as required.

lol at driving backward to the shed. Yeah, when that bucket clunked down and refused to budge again, I first jumped down to see if at least the bucket was curled up enough that it might glide over the bumps but no luck, the edge was totally flat with the ground. The only option was to drive backward, especially since once I get out of my field there are a couple of up-and-downs to traverse between the pasture and the shed. Even still, there was a full wheelbarrow of grass, sods and rocks piled up behind the bucket when I shut it off in the shed, and a clear path of divots to mark my path.

I wish I got on my tractor a couple times a day. I have put on about 50 hours since I got it, that's just an estimate though because the hour meter was broken when I bought it. I have managed to put 175 hours on my lawn tractor in 2.5 years though.