FEL hydraulics have failed

[zing]

Hi all, would appreciate any advice you have as I know the very basics of how hydraulics work but am not competent enough to diagnose with certainty what is wrong when something goes wrong. Tractor is a 1986 Case 1394, but I have only had it for 5-6 years and do not know its history. The FEL may have been added on after purchase by a previous owner and may not even be a CASE loader or hydraulics.

The issue
The loader has never been very strong when lifting, but that has not been a big issue since most of my work is with the PTO for bush hogging. Moved about a dozen tandem loads of dirt over the last couple of months though and I could see that it was even weaker at the end then it was when I started that job. Then this morning the loader just gave out completely. Worked when I started the tractor and lifted the loader a couple of feet to be able to drive, then went out to bushhog. WHen I got to the field I tried to raise the loader higher and nothing. Tried the lever forward and the loader dropped, but would not come up at all any more. Loader will not raise and bucket will not tilt upward. Had to drive backward all the way from the field to the shed, dragging the bucket on the ground. 3 pt hitch still raises and lowers normally, and front power steering work fine. The fluid in the resevoir is at the full line on the dipstick. Here are my questions.

1. Is this loader powerred from the same pump as the 3 pt?
The loader valve has 4 hoses that go forward on the loader arm and two supply hoses that come back to just under the right hand side of the seat. Does that mean they are from the same pump as the back end hydraulics for the 3 pt? If that is the case then I presume my hydraulic pumps is not the issue, and that the filter is not clogged. (I will be honest though, that I don't even know where the pump and the filter are located.) Here is a pick of the hoses that supply the FEL valve.

2. My guess is that the issue is the loader valve. Do you agree?
The hoses that supply fluid to the FEL valve are getting warm when the tractor is running but the hoses to the loader arms and the bucket are not, so it seems like the fluid is getting to the valve but then going nowhere. To me that suggests that the FEL valve is the issue, but I am definitely not sure. Is it possible that there may have been air introduced to the system and maybe it needs to be bled? Is that what these two flat nuts are for that are underneath where the hoses connect into the valve?

3. If it is the valve, can that be repaired instead of replaced?
A friend who has more knowledge than I said that the valve rings can go and cause it to just let the fluid bypass. Is this correct, and does it make sense for both the bucket and the arms to stop working at the same time when this happens? He was just trying to help by giving a diagnosis over the phone, so it is hard for him to be sure, but he said that if I took apart the valve by taking the bolts out where the plungers go in, I could change the o rings. Does this sound correct to you guys, or is it at least the most logical starting point?

4. If we are in agreement to this point, what is the best way to take apart the valve, from the plungers in the front held in by two bolts, or the shrouds in the other end held in by 4 bolts? Pictures below?

5. How do I identify the valve so I can get the right o rings? Are any of of you able to id it from the pics below, or is there another way to id it?

Sorry for the long post, but I thought too much info was better than too little. Thanks for any help that you are able to give!

 

[zing]

Oh, and I am aware that the 4 FEL hoses are REALLY split and are a failure waiting to happen. THe reason I have not replaced them are both because I am afraid of what they will cost, and because I am not sure if I can just replace them or if the whole system will need to be bled or something afterward. Feel free to chime in if you know the answer to that as well. Thanks.

 

[Coyote machine]

I'd start by locating the hydraulic filter you mentioned, and removing it and draining it into a clean container to see what comes out. Then replace it with a hydraulic, not an oil filter.
Also clean the valve assembly with a brush and degreaser, then air dry. The round protruding cap with 4 allen screws, just above question #5 is one of your spring loaded valve assemblies; which when carefully removed you can then inspect and clean, and see if there is any particulate matter possibly causing it to stick open. I'd take more pics and label each hyd hose as to exactly where it goes for re-assembly.
Chances are your valve body has been failing until it just gave up from worn parts/O-rings, or contamination, or both. Even if you don't figure out the exact valve mfg. you should be able to replace it, IF needed with a generic one from one of the online surplus hydraulic sellers.
Others like J_J can probably advise further on where to go, what to do....

 

[SSdoxie]

Take the plug out where I drew the red arrow. If the valve has it's own relief it would be under that plug. Relief stuck open would give the symptom described if the valve is not plumbed in Open Center series. With only 2 hoses going to tractor, it may not be is series with the 3pt system.

 

[5030]

My only comment is you state you have had the tractor for 4-5 years anf you have no idea where the hydraulic filter is..;.. You deserve failure. Did you ever change the oil? grease it?

Gimme a break. Give the tractor a break too. Try routine service, it's a concept.

 

[J_J]

ydraulics:
Type: open center
Pressure: 2550 psi [175.8 bar]
Valves: 1 to 3
Total flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
15.3 gpm [57.9 lpm] (tandem)
Steering flow: 7.7 gpm [29.1 lpm]
Steering press.: 1500 psi [103.4 bar]

Install a 3000 psi pressure gage and check the pressure.

So you are saying that the 3pt works and the loader does not work.

Does that include both lift and curl.

There is one problem that I can think of that will allow the 3pt to work and the lift will not, and that is the nut that secures the cyl piston. If that nut comes off, the fluid will just recirculate through the cyl and no action will occur.

If you install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the FEL valve, you can see any pressure developed by any component in the hyd system. , and then, if you raise the 3pt to max, and you show about 2500 psi, then you know the pump is working good.

The loader valve can have several problems.

Is the FEL valve lever operated or cable operated?

You mentioned the hex plugs between the work ports. Those are load check valves, and they can fail, so check them out before tearing the valve.

The relief valve can be stuck open as someone mentioned, and fluid will pass on to tank.

The relief valve is the large tall hex capped relief valve close by the IN port or the valve.

Remove t and inspect, clean or repair or replace.

You will need to reset the FEL relief to about 2550 psi

Not all valves have o-rings that you can replace. Those o-rings are primarily there to keep dirt out, and they are not high pressure seals. If you don't have external leaks, don't mess with them.

Do the simple test first before messing with the valve.

Your valve is not stuck in the float position is it.

Is your spool moving in and out the valve equally. The float position will have a little more travel than the retract.

 

[Coyote machine]

My only comment is you state you have had the tractor for 4-5 years anf you have no idea where the hydraulic filter is..;.. You deserve failure. Did you ever change the oil? grease it?

Gimme a break. Give the tractor a break too. Try routine service, it's a concept.

Deserve failure?! That's pretty harsh; no one deserves failure just because they may be clueless. They may end up with failed components, but some have to start by learning the hard way.:confused3:

 

[JerryG]

Check the suction screen if it has one. Change the filter and you really need to change the fluid. But first of all take your quick disconnects a part and reinstall. They may look seated but may not be. If not they can flow some fluid or none

 

[oldnslo]

Since I can only see six hoses and it appears that the port labeled byd in one of the pictures is not used it would indicate that this valve is not connected in series or possibly not connected properly in series.

Zing, if you hold the lever to raise the loader and then try and raise the 3pt, will the 3pt work with a load on it?

If yes: This would indicate the 3pt running off of separate pump from FEL but not sure how they are plumbed.

If no: This would indicate both the FEL & 3 pt are on the same pump and would indicate a problem in the loader circuit. Should also eliminate a relief problem in the FEL valve since the 3 pt is down stream and it works when the FEL valve is in center position.

 

[zing]

Wow! Lots of great responses and only one judgemental bucket head! Not a bad ratio.

I will try to respond to each of your questions individually. This place is our future retirement place and other then two week's vacation I am usually only here every second or third weekend, and that is mostly spent mowing the lawn. The tractor only gets used in July and August to cut the hay fields to hopefully prevent them from turning to alders and goldenrod. From Sept to June it doesn't move. Most of the suggestions that you guys gave will take me a while to do, so if I don't post back with a result right away it doesn't mean I am not paying attention, it just means I haven't gotten to it yet.