Ethanol free gas?

[John_Mc]

And....... I live in a 289 year old house that is covered (inside and out) with lead paint.
I am obviously doomed to die!
Sure hope my IQ doesn't reach zero before I get there.

Fun fact about science: it doesn't care whether you believe in it or not.

I'm guessing you are not eating the paint. Hopefully your interior has been repainted sometime in the last 40 years (lead paint was banned in 1978). If not, I sure hope there are no small children in your household.

 

[ruffdog]

NASCAR went lead-free in 2008 and this decision was influenced by the elevated lead levels in the blood of race teams.

 

[fried1765]

Do you eat the paint? Like asbestos, as long as there aren't particles for you to ingest or inhale you aren't at much risk.

My dad and I both sanded the painted woodwork, both inside and out, for years.
I think we both ate a lot of lead paint.

 

[fried1765]

Fun fact about science: it doesn't care whether you believe in it or not.

I'm guessing you are not eating the paint. Hopefully your interior has been repainted sometime in the last 40 years (lead paint was banned in 1978). If not, I sure hope there are no small children in your household.

I was not aware that covering up lead paint with lead free paint, is considered to be resolution for the lead paint issue.

 

[John_Mc]

My dad and I both sanded the painted woodwork, both inside and out, for years.
I think we both ate a lot of lead paint.

Your body can eliminate some lead over time. As mentioned earlier, some people metabolize lead more readily than others. Sounds as though you are one of the lucky ones.

These days, anyone who is paid to remove lead-based paint has to be certified for it (much like people who remove asbestos). A homeowner can do it themselves, but should take precautions.

I was not aware that covering up lead paint with lead free paint, is considered to be resolution for the lead paint issue.

It's not considered a permanent resolution, but if you use the right kind of paint, it does encapsulate the old lead paint, keeping the worst of it out of the home environment. Both the lead paint and the wall itself must be in good condition for this to work. Once things start peeling or chipping, you are back to the same old problem.

What You Need to Know About Working with Lead-Based Paint

 

[NoTrespassing]

Well, thanks to the link provided earlier in this thread I was able to find ethanol-free gass locally. The pump has a hose specifically for 91 octane premium ethanol-free gas so you don't get cross-contamination. The price difference was a little shocking though, regular 87 octane was 2.679 and premium ethanol-free was a whopping 3.229! I filled up the my Hyundai Accent for $33. I watch my mileage religously and average between 35-39 in the summer. I'm going to run a few tanks of the expensive stuff and compare over the next few weeks.

Kevin

 

[Jstpssng]

Well, thanks to the link provided earlier in this thread I was able to find ethanol-free gass locally. The pump has a hose specifically for 91 octane premium ethanol-free gas so you don't get cross-contamination. The price difference was a little shocking though, regular 87 octane was 2.679 and premium ethanol-free was a whopping 3.229! I filled up the my Hyundai Accent for $33. I watch my mileage religously and average between 35-39 in the summer. I'm going to run a few tanks of the expensive stuff and compare over the next few weeks.

Kevin

That should be an interesting experiment, I hope that you post the results. I remember when we started seeing ethanol my mileage dropped be 10%. I always blamed the gas but that may or may not be the reason.

 

[3Ts]

That should be an interesting experiment, I hope that you post the results. I remember when we started seeing ethanol my mileage dropped be 10%. I always blamed the gas but that may or may not be the reason.

I'd heard that the mileage will be better with gasoline than E10 by 20%, but maybe not quite that good. It will be interesting to see the results.

The following is from: How much ethanol is in gasoline, and how does it affect fuel economy? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure gasoline. The impact of fuel ethanol on vehicle fuel economy varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. The energy content of denaturant is about equal to the energy content of pure gasoline. In general, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by about 3% when using E10 relative to gasoline that does not contain fuel ethanol

 

[Oaktree]

Not long after E-10 came to Maine I bought a new fuel can with one of those fancy "environmental friendly" spouts which make the can cost three times what it's worth.
Within a year the seals were all leaking, just as your O-rings on older engines.

I wonder if that was the fault of the E10 or just those crappy spouts being cheap & flimsy. Those got replaced on all my gas & diesel cans.

As far as E10 use vs non-E goes, if it's something likely to sit unused for weeks + at a time it's non-E (chainsaws/trimmers, my ATV, gemeratpr. last fill of the season on my snowmobile, etc.). For the lawnmower or snowmobile in season I'll use E10, it'll get used quickly enough that its still fresh. Lawnmower, wood splitter, etc. get run dry before putting away for the winter.
Can't say I've had any fuel-related problems.

There are a handful of stations here that sell non-E, 91 octane only. As others have noted, it's 75-80¢ /gal more than 87 octane E10, maybe 25¢ more than regular 91 octane.

 

[k0ua]

My experience with driving 80 miles per day in a Chevrolet Silverado 5.3 litre was just a little less than 10% more mileage by going to 91 no ethanol vs 87 ethanol. Just a bit over 1 MPG as I remember.

 

[John_Mc]

Some years ago, I tracked mileage over multiple tanks of fuel in each of 3 vehicles. (Vehicle ages were 2001, 2004, and 2011 - so they were all relatively modern "post ethanol requirement" engines).

I ranged from 10% to 13% worse mileage when running 87 Octane E10 vs running 91 octane E0 (i.e. "pure gas". It was hardly a scientific test: to do that, I'd need to make it "blind" (someone else fill my tank so I don't know which is in my tank). I'd also have to drive under more controlled conditions, to try to guarantee similar driving for the E10 and the E0.) However, I figured with just random driving, it would even out if I did it over enough tanks of gas. The fact that every tank of gas was in this same range (10-13% worse for E10) gives me a bit more confidence in the results (either that or I had a significant subconscious bias against E10 in my driving habits).

The difference in energy content of pure ethanol (by volume) is about 1/3 less than gasoline: It takes 3 gallons of ethanol to match the energy of gas. Since E10 is only 10% ethanol, you'd expect E10 to have a little over 3% less energy content than "pure gas". There is something other than simply the energy content affecting my results.

I know that octane rating has no effect on gas mileage, as long as it is high enough to avoid causing engine knock (both theoritically, and from running trieals of 87 octane E10 vs 91 octane E10). Whether the difference is something about the engine that causes it not to run ethanol blends as efficiently, or some subconscious bias against E10 in my driving habits, I can't say with certainty.

If my results are at all valid, it begs the question: How does E10 fuel help our energy independence or reduce our dependence on fossil fuels at all? If adding 10% ethanol to my fuel decreases my mileage by 10% or more, I'm still burning the same amount of fossil fuel to get anywhere. Why not just sell me 9/10ths of a gallon of pure gas, and charge me for the full gallon. (OK, I'll grant that burning an oxygenated fuel like E10 results in a bit less pollution.)

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
Rather than decrease our dependency on foreign oil, I believe that it's supposed to make the engines burn cleaner and reduce air pollution, like MTBE before. I pay attention to fuel economy for that reason as much as from an economic standpoint.
I'm a bit more green than many (most?) members here and understand all too well about that need. However, I also acknowledge that some of the "green leaders" have a different agenda than they claim.

I noted the decrease in mileage a while before I realized that I was running E-10. With my company truck I just swipe the card and pump the gas, so aside from knowing where the lowest prices are I really don't think much about it.

 

[shooterdon]

Its about the corn farmers. More money for their crops.

 

[3930dave]

Natgas is the cleanest burning hydrocarbon..... but apparently that industry in Can/USA doesn't have good lobbyists.....

Rgds, D.

 

[John_Mc]

^^^^
Rather than decrease our dependency on foreign oil, I believe that it's supposed to make the engines burn cleaner and reduce air pollution, like MTBE before. I pay attention to fuel economy for that reason as much as from an economic standpoint.
I'm a bit more green than many (most?) members here and understand all too well about that need. However, I also acknowledge that some of the "green leaders" have a different agenda than they claim..

Well, I acknowledged the air pollution angle: "(OK, I'll grant that burning an oxygenated fuel like E10 results in a bit less pollution.)" In some areas that mandated oxygenated fuel, it was promoted as a way of reducing pollution. However, in the legislative debates about the ethanol mandate, the main point was "reducing our dependence on foreign oil". We already had other oxygenates which delivered the cleaner burn, so arguing for that point carried little weight (it was well after the ethanol mandate came to be that the problems some other oxygenates were causing when they leaked into the ground water became apparent.)

 

[atsah]

Spark plug gap makes a difference, changing fuels will get mixed results, you really only benefit from using premium, non ethanol when you're plugs gap is closer to the electrode than a stock plug.. .028-.031 is reasonable for hi test fuel.. Most vehicles come from factory with a .035 gap to run 87 octane..

 

[Jstpssng]

Well, I acknowledged the air pollution angle: "(OK, I'll grant that burning an oxygenated fuel like E10 results in a bit less pollution.)" In some areas that mandated oxygenated fuel, it was promoted as a way of reducing pollution. However, in the legislative debates about the ethanol mandate, the main point was "reducing our dependence on foreign oil". We already had other oxygenates which delivered the cleaner burn, so arguing for that point carried little weight (it was well after the ethanol mandate came to be that the problems some other oxygenates were causing when they leaked into the ground water became apparent.)

All semantics aside, I think that ShooterDon has the most accurate answer. Especially when you consider that the US is now the top petroleum producer in the world.
I will stand behind my previous statement though about "Green" leaders.

 

[ruffdog]

Well, I acknowledged the air pollution angle: "(OK, I'll grant that burning an oxygenated fuel like E10 results in a bit less pollution.)" In some areas that mandated oxygenated fuel, it was promoted as a way of reducing pollution. However, in the legislative debates about the ethanol mandate, the main point was "reducing our dependence on foreign oil". We already had other oxygenates which delivered the cleaner burn, so arguing for that point carried little weight (it was well after the ethanol mandate came to be that the problems some other oxygenates were causing when they leaked into the ground water became apparent.)

Some of the earlier oxygenates were MTBE's and were real nasty when the got in the ground...they would never go away. While ethanol dissipates quickly in the ground and water and is supposedly safer too.

Methyl tert-butyl ether - Wikipedia

 

[ruffdog]

I'd heard that the mileage will be better with gasoline than E10 by 20%, but maybe not quite that good. It will be interesting to see the results.

The following is from: How much ethanol is in gasoline, and how does it affect fuel economy? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure gasoline. The impact of fuel ethanol on vehicle fuel economy varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. The energy content of denaturant is about equal to the energy content of pure gasoline. In general, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by about 3% when using E10 relative to gasoline that does not contain fuel ethanol

E10 should be about 3% less mpg
E15 should be about 5% less mpg
E85 should be about 28% less mpg
E100 should be about 33% less mpg

Another Reason Your Mileage May Vary (for the Worse): Ethanol | News | Cars.com

 

[3930dave]

E10 should be about 3% less mpg
E15 should be about 5% less mpg
E85 should be about 28% less mpg
E100 should be about 33% less mpg

Another Reason Your Mileage May Vary (for the Worse): Ethanol | News | Cars.com

AKA Greenwashing Taxes.

Rgds, D.