engine trouble

[woodlandfarms]

OK, I have posted this I think before but it reared its ugly head once again.

One of our neighbors up north got an ugly personal surprise from his wife and has temporarily moved in to our place. He is someone whom I call on for help so I trust him with my tractor (he is mowing our property and doing general maintenance for us while we are stuck in LA). So while mowing, he stalled the tractor on a steep section. It would not restart. he let is sit for an hour and off it went.

Here is the deal, if you turn off the tractor (Or stall it as my neighbor did) on a slope when it the engine is warm, the engine will turn over but not start. You have to wait for the engine to cool before it will start.

I have tried to diagnose this but frankly, I don't like the thrill of being at 30 degrees and killing the engine to expirement, so my chances to work this out are pretty slim.

The engine is full of oil, it turns over. I have not listened for the fuel pump clicking noise (suggested by Terry).

I am stumped. I thought maybe an oil sensor is bad, saying hey, I have no oil so I am not going to let you start (not sure if Deutz has this). Or maybe a connector to the fuel pump gets too warm and...

This does not happen in the flats (flats being anything less than 15 degrees).

Any ideas of where to look? I am diagnosing this from afar, so I am pointing him toward possible culprits. i have not heard of anyone else having this problem...

Carl

 

[KentT]

With zero, repeat zero, experience with the Deutz engine, it sounds like some kind of vapor lock issue that's preventing fuel from being delivered as it shoud. It may be a situation that the airflow is keeping the fuel cooled enough when running that the fuel flow isn't interrupted -- but remove that cooling air and the fuel immediately starts to heat up and bublle somewhere, preventing the fuel from flowing...

Just a thought, from a novice when it comes to diesels, and with zero Deutz experience. I have, however, wresled with vapor lock issues on air-cooled VW gas engines...

 

[SpringHollow]

My bet is the electrical connector on the engine. Loosen a fuel line and see if any fuel flowing after the pump. Never heard of vapor lock on a diesel but maybe.

Ken

 

[ponytug]

Carl,

You've mentioned this before, and I don't think I have any great ideas beyond normal fault finding. (And yes, I would probably stall it out on a hillside to work through the problem.)

I don't know of a low oil sensor or low oil pressure sensor.

Given the relative vapor pressures of diesel and gasoline, (0.008 psi vs 7-10psi at 68F) it would be tough to have a vapor lock, unless the fuel filters were clogged, as in really, really clogged.

I'm with Ken, try loosening a fuel line near the injector first. If that is a problem I would check the electrical connectors first, and then the fuel filters. I would suspect the fuel solenoid most of all, since it is temperature related and solenoids are notorious for temperature induced malfunctions.

My PT has four (4) fuel filters
1) metal mesh pre-filter in the tank
2) an inline minifilter
3) a screen filter on the engine
4) and a large paper filter on the engine.

If all else checks out, you might want to verify that excess diesel is being return to the tank, in case there is some kink or plug in the return hose.

I think yours is missing #2, but Terry says they only used it on a few years. But unless the engine normally has power issues, it is hard for me to imagine that the filters could be clogged enough to cause a problem.

All the best,

Peter

My bet is the electrical connector on the engine. Loosen a fuel line and see if any fuel flowing after the pump. Never heard of vapor lock on a diesel but maybe.

Ken

 

[Bob999]

Carl,

I just want to double check that in fact the engine does crank--not just a click. I ask because otherwise the problem sounds like one I have had trying to restart a hot engine--When I turn the key on the hydraulic oil cooling fan is actuated and will sometimes pull the voltage down enough that the starter solenoid will not fully pull in to crank the engine. Letting the hydraulic oil cool will allow a restart. If this is the problem disconnecting the hydraulic oil cooling fan when the problem occurs should allow a start.

Also the clicking noise Terry is talking about is the fuel solenoid--not the fuel pump

 

[wasabi]

Peter mentioned: "it is hard for me to imagine that the filters could be clogged enough to cause a problem."


my recent experience, while not related to either slope or overheating, suggests detrimental clogging can indeed occur. my 45 hp deutz would turn over fine but no spark. blew air into the tank which pushed the clog thru and things are fine again.

The indication of malfunction when overheated only on incline is puzzling though...

 

[KentT]

I was thinking perhaps prior to the fuel pump -- where is it located?

 

[ponytug]

As they say, "live and learn..." I'll work more on my imagination.

And the clog was? Algae? and it got pushed through to...?

Certainly put a smile on my face!

All the best,

Peter

Peter mentioned: "it is hard for me to imagine that the filters could be clogged enough to cause a problem."


my recent experience, while not related to either slope or overheating, suggests detrimental clogging can indeed occur. my 45 hp deutz would turn over fine but no spark. blew air into the tank which pushed the clog thru and things are fine again.

The indication of malfunction when overheated only on incline is puzzling though...

 

[woodlandfarms]

I guess I am going to have to go get stuck on a hillside with my tools. This sounds like so much fun I just can't wait.

The one thing is that it only happens on a slope. Not on the flats. That is the rub in all of this. If I could repeat on the flats all would be good.. But I need an incline, and generally one that I am pointed up or down on (although once I had it stop on a side slope).

Grumble grumble grumble.

I will look into the connections and the pump...

 

[irwin]

Just out of left field... could you jack up the front (or rear) to the proper declivity and hope for a failure?

That way you (and your tools) can be somewhere more comfortable.

 

[J_J]

Just maybe the oil pickup is above the level of the oil when on a slope. If so, disable the sender or short the wires together, whatever signal the engine needs to start. You might simulate a slope on the ramp on a trailer. Jack up the rear of the trailer if you have to.

You want a slope, have someone bring out several loads of dirt.

 

[Gravy]

Just maybe the oil pickup is above the level of the oil when on a slope.

This could also apply to the fuel pickup. It might just be sucking wind. Putting a couple of gallons of fuel in the tank would answer that question.

 

[SpringHollow]

the oil and fuel pickups do not address that when it cools down, it starts.

Ken

 

[woodlandfarms]

I think someone died on or around my PT. It is the ghost that keeps messing with the machine... Only answer I can figure.

I think Irwin is right. Going to drive it up on some logs and turn it off... see if I can get an answer...

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

An interesting research project. Did someone with a bizarre sense of humor die in Tazewell when PTs were being designed?

A suggestion from the blue: maybe what you are experiencing is not from the slope but just from the heat. The contribution of the slope is that engine temps go up when you're working harder.
For years, my 1845 would not start when really hot. It acted as if the battery had died. I thought I had it licked when I installed a solenoid at the starter to make sure it got nearly full battery voltage to the starter solenoid. After a period of seeming success, the problem reoccurred. I found that the PTO switch sometimes didn't properly carry current to the starter circuit when the switch was off but the machine hot. That also got me a respite, but the problem reoccurred. Somewhere along the line, I found that when the starter switch didn't start it, I could light it off by crossing the hot lead to the solenoid with my Gerber tool. Made sparks, of course, but only a little discoloration on the pliers.
When the failures got more frequent recently, I ran a new wire directly from the starter switch to my added starter solenoid, bypassing all the interlocks. I haven't had the problem since doing that, but given past experience, will not swear it is cured. (I do have to check carefully not to start with the PTO engaged or the treadle off center.)
The fuel solenoid circuit may need similar treatment on yours.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Great ideas charlie.

Now this goes to all you slope mower guys. I saw in the ad that PT has an engine kill feature when you get off the seat.

Mine does not. Stand up, sit down, kneel, my PT continues to run.

I looked at an old wiring chart (my PT is supposedly 2002, right Ken?) and I see no kill feature.

So, maybe this is the culprit, or part of it....

Hmmm... now that I think about it.. probably not.. But anyone have a diagram or a description of how this is wired?

Carl

 

[wasabi]

you know guys, one of the reason I enjoy TBN so much is the dry wit and occasional banter.

JJ is still dreaming about a PT manual and now you want a wiring schematic? ROFL

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

you know guys, one of the reason I enjoy TBN so much is the dry wit and occasional banter.

JJ is still dreaming about a PT manual and now you want a wiring schematic? ROFL

Aha. Gotcha - I have a diagram for the 1845-1850, which was/is included in the manual. It's not a pure schematic, and has a page for the dash panel and another for the engine bay. It takes some staring and head scratching, but isn't bad, although production wire color might vary slightly from the diagram. The junction strip under the front console panel and the one inside the engine compartment junction box make really pretty good test contact points, but none of that convenience helps to diagnose an intermittent problem when it isn't happening.
Sedgewood, did you post the diagram on your site?

 

[SpringHollow]

Our seat kill switches were bypassed. Somewhere, I have the one from my seat when i replaced it unless i sent it to you with the other seat parts. So it was there but bypassed in the small metal box on the back of the seat.

Ken

 

[J_J]

Not dreaming at all, for I know what the company stands for. Just sell them a machine, and have them, meaning us , beg for part numbers, and then add enough parts to meet the parts min, and have only one person that knows anything about how something works. I just like to stick-em every once in a while. To tell you the truth, I don't think they ever did have a factory manual for their products. Anybody ever seen one. I have seen one of their owner manuals, and it looks like a 4 th generation copy of a third copy.

I asked for a part the other day, and was told we have lots of parts, go and measure the one you have, meaning the Hydroback cable. They had one close by a couple of inches. Why don't they have the part number, and go to the bin and pull the cable, sounds easy, but I have never been to the factory. I found out that other people make that Hydroback cable, and much cheaper. I have already been thinking about another treadle/pedal design for my 1445, similar to the heel/toe pedal on the Kubota. You all do know what the Hydroback setup is supposed to do. In case you don't, it is a balance spring setup with a spring inside of another spring, and the purpose is to center the fwd/rev lever on the VSP pump, but that is only as good as the cable freely sliding in the cable sheath.

Just for instance, I have a 4 in thick manual for my Case skid loader that cover the machine from front to back and beyond, plus owners manual.