Electric Winch for pulling logs/river debris after floods

[Komrade]

I have a river front property, and get a large pile of debris (mostly trees) every year as it's low lying flood plane.
Initially I wanted a mini-ex with a turning grapple.. But that 40K idea will have to wait (it has other potential uses on my property)
I do have a grapple for my L-Series tractor.. I've been reading about electric winches on these forums, but I never had one and barely operated one on a UTV once or twice.. I am still on the fence if I want to give up the brush guard and replace it with a hitch mount, but the purpose of my post is to get your opinion on electrical side, plus inquire further about winch types. Or maybe you tell me it's a waste of money all together.
I realize winches draw a lot of power.. I also realize they may overheat under heavy use.
I would imagine my use would be fairly heavy, e.g. pull a log 50-100 feet, then pick it up with a grapple and move it where I really want it
I have deep cycles solar batteries, for high draw they're rated ~<150Ah (200Ah otherwise).. I could have 2, or 4 batteries.. The more batteries, the more logistics to pull them out, but not that big of a deal I only need to do this 1-2 times per year.
I looked at winch amp draws, and 2000-4000lb ranges around 200A.
The alternator on my Kubota generates about 40A.

Q: Is my use case for electric winches practical given I have the batteries for it?
Q: How much of that 40A is available for battery charging (e.g. I have no other lights on)..
Q: Should the charging be done by a separate controller, or should batteries be "direct connect" to this batteries? Size of controller may depend on previous question
Q: What features/type of winch would be good choice for heavy duty use/minimize any overheating
Q: Is there a significant difference in performance/efficiency?
Q: other than remote control, are there any other features I should consider?
Q: what size should I get as related to tractor weight? Tracor with front loader is 4700, backhoe probably adds another 2000+.. So total is in 7-7.5k range. Not sure how that works with tire traction and pulling something heavy.. I know reviews say "bigger is better", but I not sure it should be much beyond tractor weight (e.g. 9.5K)
Q: do all winches have variable amp draw based on load, or should i look at specific ones.

I am aware of existence of log/skidding winches
1) they're 3-4K, and this solution could be <1K taking advantage of existing batteries (and making sure I don't kill them)
2) when I put one one, I lose the backhoe, which counterbalances any logs I pickup with grapple
3) I do not necessarily want to drag the logs all over the property

 

[Komrade]

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/329649-mounting-winch-front-kubota.html

Duty cycle isn't the only problem with this idea - the line speed on electric winches is sloooooooooow. It'd be faster getting a rope, tying your chains to it and driving forward to pull the logs, then back up and remove the rope and hook the chains to the tractor before driving off with the logs to your landing.

I use a 200' logging rope, chokers, pulleys, etc to get logs out of the woods. They move as fast as I care to move the tractor (which is out in a clearing). Way faster than speed of any of those winches, and more power too.

 

[CoyPatton]

I would also wonder why the use of a winch and multiple batteries, instead of spending that money on chains to pull the logs.
I understand that you may have issues getting your tractor close enough without dragging the logs away from the river, but chains, cables, or even ropes would seems a more functional solution.
You could use multiple chains on several logs (depending on total log weight) to drag several at a time. Even dragging one log at a time this would be faster than an electric winch over a long pull. I have ran a winch on a car hauler trailer for years, and have had to wait for a winch to cool on pulls not much longer than my trailer. This is not every pull but hard pulls (uphill and heavy and such).

 

[MossRoad]

It's been discussed here on TBN many times. Those 12V winches are RECOVERY WINCHES for getting vehicles unstuck. Sure, they can be used for other things, but they are not practical. They are slow. They pull tons of power from your battery. You have to let them sit and cool after just a couple minutes of use under load or they'll cook.

You'd be better off getting some good chains, some snatch blocks, a long length of cable or two, and just driving your tractor forward pulling the cable for the occasional logs you are talking about.

I was fortunate to obtain a 100' piece of 1/2" cable from a wrecker company many years ago. Over the years, I've used it with my Suburban to pull several hung trees from places I could not get close to.

 

[rademamj1]

If you have a winch, just put it aside and use chains and/or multiple tow straps linked together to pull those logs out. Winches are incredibly slow and inefficient, with high amperage drawdown.

Winches maybe more fun to use, but nothing beats chains and tow straps for efficiency of log recovery. I use two of the following straps linked together for logs.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078K25FLM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_Gu7bGbTSKNP0Q

 

[jeff9366]

Consider a PTO powered, mechanical logging winch for your needs.

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=TRACTOR+LOGGING+WINCH

 

[oosik]

I've used electric winches( WARN ) for over 50 years. Heat - hot is not an appropriate term - I've melted the insulation off the wiring that big around as your index finger. I've had the paint burn off the electric motor. There is no alternator that will even approach the requirements of a winch under heavy load - 400 to 500 amp draw is not uncommon. Good, heavy duty batteries will provide this amp draw but will draw down rapidly. Then you are waiting half hour or more for the batteries to recharge. Do this a couple two or three times and everything - winch motor, wiring, batteries will be too hot to touch. Newer winches have thermal overload protection. So they will automatically shut down when they get hot. And again, there you are, waiting. As has been stated - electric winches are for recovery and not necessarily designed for what you want to do.

I would recommend - long tow straps or steel cable or this new synthetic cable. Hook up to the logs, etc and pull them out with your tractor. Or as suggested by jeff9366 - a logging. winch.

The WARN winches I always used were 8000# to 10,000# pull.

 

[3Ts]

I have a 2500# electric ATV winch mounted on the front of my tractor. I got it primarily because the chains cost was more than the winch and it's cable. I have used it to pull the occasional log out, but it is SLOW and has a VERY SHORT duty cycle. I may pull as many as 1 or 2 logs a day out so I don't use it much. If you're doing more than a couple logs, the advice to use chains/cable and tow them out with your tractor is the way to go.

 

[rademamj1]

I noticed we didn't answer your specific questions regarding batteries and recharge in the field. Deep cycle AGM batteries are the better choice for the high amperage drawdown by the winch. I used a pair of them for powering my winch, and they last about 45mins before needing recharge. Don't even consider using the alternator for charging...unless you have a full day. I used a dedicated Honda generator, and was about 5 hours to fully recharge....and then good for about 45mins winch out logs again.

Ultimately, I switched to cutting up the logs into sections with a chainsaw and dragging them with my tractor.

 

[plowhog]

What model Honda generator did you use? My complaint about charging with a portable generator is that all the ones I have seen only offer 8amp output to charge a 12v battery.

 

[WranglerX]

All the above coments about, slow, duty cycle , heat, battery recharge time are valid....

If you are doing occasional pulls all the comments on using chains, or pull straps or cable are valid....

If its a absolute must you have a winch consider PTO drive winch (not exactly logging winch) or PTO drive capstan and something like Spectra rope or free standing small gas engine powered portable capstan...

Check out Youtube for using capstan drives to see if it fits your (percieved) needs..

Dale

 

[rademamj1]

What model Honda generator did you use? My complaint about charging with a portable generator is that all the ones I have seen only offer 8amp output to charge a 12v battery.

Don't use the dedicated 12V charge port on these gensets, because like you say it is limited to 8amps. Hookup two - 120V (15A) battery chargers to recharge batteries and make full use of the generators capacity.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

My Honda generator also charges a MAX of 8 amps, that's why I just plug a high output batt. charger into it when I want more output!

SR

 

[John_Mc]

The best tool for this is a 3 Pt hitch powered logging winch. However, since you said that is out of your price range, if I was not satisfied with chains hooked to my drawbar, I'd use a Portable Capstan Winch. It's powered by a small Honda gas engine. Single line pull is 2200# (use a snatch block to double that). Length of pull is limited only by the length of your rope. It runs at 40 FPM, significantly slower than a 3PH logging winch, but quite a bit faster than an electric winch. Cost is $1600.

 

[Komrade]

Thanks all. I am dropping the idea of a 12V winch, and yes it was discussed many times here.. I found plenty of threads. I am not yet ready for a logging winch, but I'll keen an eye out for a used one.. they don't seem to depreciate too much

I'd like to consider rope/cable and snatch blocks, and pulling with tractor.
I see bull ropes used by arborist with high ratings llike 40K lb
But snatch blocks seem to be geared towards steel cables, which seem to have lower rating.
Will try to figure out how to do it with a 3/4 bull rope, the 3/4 snatch blocks seem rather pricey thou.

Edit: looks like I was overthinking it, maybe a 1/4" wire rope will be sufficient.

 

[WranglerX]

Thanks all. I am dropping the idea of a 12V winch, and yes it was discussed many times here.. I found plenty of threads. I am not yet ready for a logging winch, but I'll keen an eye out for a used one.. they don't seem to depreciate too much

I'd like to consider rope/cable and snatch blocks, and pulling with tractor.
I see bull ropes used by arborist with high ratings llike 40K lb
But snatch blocks seem to be geared towards steel cables, which seem to have lower rating.
Will try to figure out how to do it with a 3/4 bull rope, the 3/4 snatch blocks seem rather pricey thou.

Edit: looks like I was overthinking it, maybe a 1/4" wire rope will be sufficient.

Look at "Spectra" ropes... Many are replacing steel winch cable with this synthetic type of rope...

Spectra 12-Strand Rope

Seriously double you will need anything bigger than 3/8, average tensile strength of 14,100 lbs...

The negative of steel cable is as surface strands break, and stick out, and unless you have gloves on, you get a lot of nasty puncture wounds...

Dale

 

[John_Mc]

Thanks all. I am dropping the idea of a 12V winch, and yes it was discussed many times here.. I found plenty of threads. I am not yet ready for a logging winch, but I'll keen an eye out for a used one.. they don't seem to depreciate too much

I'd like to consider rope/cable and snatch blocks, and pulling with tractor.
I see bull ropes used by arborist with high ratings llike 40K lb
But snatch blocks seem to be geared towards steel cables, which seem to have lower rating.
Will try to figure out how to do it with a 3/4 bull rope, the 3/4 snatch blocks seem rather pricey thou.

Edit: looks like I was overthinking it, maybe a 1/4" wire rope will be sufficient.

Steel cable has the advantage of being more abrasion resistant, but it does have its downsides: weight, if you are getting into any significant diameter, and jabs you get from broken strands once it starts to fray. Rope is lighter and stores more easily (no need to coil, just get a rope bag and stuff one end in the bag and keep stuffing until it's almost all in. Tie the end off outside the bag to a handle to keep it from getting lost/tangled in the bag. It puls right out without tangling when you are ready to use it.) If you are not using this heavily and regularly, I would not hesitate to consider the proper types of synthetic rope. Whether you go with Rope or cable, remember that it's not really breaking strength you should be considering, it's "Working Load Limit", which is usually a fraction of the breaking strength.

If you go with Rope, I'd consider 1/2" (approx 13MM) diameter. It's easy to handle, and easier to get a grip on than smaller diameters when you are handling by hand. A lot of the hardware out there is also designed for 1/2" diameter. (Including the portable winch I linked above, if you decide to go that way eventually.)

Remember that even bull ropes stretch, and that that stretch is dangerous if the rope or some hardware you are using with it breaks. It can come at you like a rocket.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

The negative of those ropes is, the sun degrades them, and dragging them over rocks, around tree's and through rough ground, is really hard on them, shortening their life.

SR

 

[Komrade]

thanks, I will plan on rope to be tied to a chain that's tied to a log I pull, minimizing rope damage. I have a number of chains, but pulleys are rope friendly and will allow me to pull the log into direction I want. I will avoid cable due to drawbacks outlined until I feel one is a must.

The ropes I looked at yesterday at 3/8 were all almost exclusively made for winches and maxing out at 100ft. I'll take a look at 1/2, if there are any specific ones anybody would recommend, I'd appreciate, I didn't realize it's such a specialty item (or I can't search)

btw, I liked the portable winch, but for a few hundred more one can find a used skidding PTO winch.

 

[newbury]

And if you even are seriously thinking about rope -
Sale - Rope Miscellaneous Sections | CMC PRO

ROPE, SHORT LENGTHS 1/2" $75 Over $700 CMC Lifeline, CMC Static Pro, KMIII 50 lbs 500720 ROPE, SHORT LENGTHS Misc $75 Over $500 CMC Lifeline, CMC Static Pro

I use it all over the place. I've bought 3 boxes. They sell a box (500720) that is SUPPOSED to be smaller diameter, with lots of it the size for throwlines etc. I've bought that two times and it's always been mostly 1/2 diameter and up, out of 2 boxes I think I got about 2 hanks of 7/16 and nothing smaller. 1/2" diameter rope is tight on a 1/2" pulley.
In all I've bought there have been very few pieces shorter than 30 feet.