Driverless Cars

[3930dave]

I selected this link below, partly because most of the comments are likely from Tesla owners.

1) I haven't heard of unintended acceleration claims re Tesla, so the driver was quite possibly the architect of his own demise.

2) When adding complexity, what collateral issues are you creating ? It's worth considering that factor in any system or vehicle, not just driverless cars.

It was reported that the door lock solenoids couldn't deploy, and air-bags didn't deflate.

Here comes another Tesla crash ... | Tesla Motors Club

3) Multi-layered glass (like MBenz uses) excepted, these work well on regular safety-glass

resqme(R) – resqme, Inc.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Would it be trollish of me to point out that one of the first autonomous programs, built-in to certain german made cars, was designed to circumvent emissions standards. Just say'en.

Not IMO, but I deliberately take a broad view of most topics .

That technique was used on regular production vehicles. IDK of it being used on autonomous vehicles, but it may well have.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Professor Marvel]

You say that now, but what will you say if you get transported to a parallel dimension where the good guy are evil.

You are right. I guess it depends where I end up eh? :laughing:

 

[prof fate]

People do the wrong thing all the time.
Where I live hitting a deer in the road is common - and the insurance people make it plain - HIT the deer. NO NOT swerve.

Why? Seems the natural reaction is to avoid hitting the deer, or anything for htat matter.

Well, if you succeed nothing happens. However, too many hit something else - a tree on the side of the road, put the car in a ditch, etc. The deer runs away. So why DID you hit the tree? Deer? Sorry...we don't see a deer. You lost control - you're a wreckless driver! Regardless it's YOUR responsibility to maintain control.

So a deer, a kid screaming in the backseat, a bee flies in the window - don't crash.

Someone will be tasked with programing the computer that can think far faster than the human brain. The first command I guess, will be to avoid accidents and protect the occupants. Other commands will tell the vehicle what to do in complex situations. So we have the app that when we are going down the road and meet a lorry coming straight towards us, and we cannot stop within time of the impact. BUT to our left is a granny in the path, to the right is a group of school children. I wonder what consideration are taken by the person doing the programme.

 

[prof fate]

Failures will occur - in everything. it's not economically feasible to avoid ALL failures - even NASA had issues. We just have to accept that some percentage of things will fail - be that your water pump, or phone charger or your car's collison avoidance subroutine.

I see glitches in my computer, tablet, software, phone all the time. None have killed me, so far. I see issues with my car at times - crank start...2 seconds. Every so often it need 20 seconds. Why?

Used to be you'd make something and make it for 5, 10, 15 years. With little change. Or changes that were hard to see. A 63 vw looks like a 78 vw, but there were a lot of changes. I assume a 39 farmall is a lot different than a 52 farmall, yet they look a lot alike to me.

Issues I see today are we rely on computers for a lot of 'testing' in software, and I suppose it's good...good enough? We used to overbuild when we were unsure, but not now. We can 'be sure' via computer simulation. Yet there may be a bug in the testing software...one update affects something else, then they do anohter update to fix that one, etc.

Used to be you'd 'finish' a product before rushing it into production - now it's get it out there and we'll tweak it as we go. Maybe always been some of this - I remember my dad saying 45 years ago never buy a new model car in it's first year.

And new models are not always better..win 98 was great, Me/2000 not so much. I liked win8, got win 10 whether i wanted it or not. And it's updating whenever it feels the urge. Why? If it works leave it be...so I have to assume it's NOT working...

But there is little we can do about it. Maybe go be amish...

Some of the best help Progress can get comes from thoughtfully probing the failure modes; ideally, ahead of time. That used to be one of the cornerstones of Engineering.

I understand the mass-market, and what's about to happen. I also understand that many/most people don't care about these issues. Including, a lot of people that should.

The head of GM (allegedly an iron-ring wearer hersefl) testified not that long ago in front of the US govt. She said that they had no-idea how those fatal ignition key problems were allowed into production.

If THAT ^ example of corporate indifference/incompetence..... while implementing a relatively simple technology, doesn't give you serious pause to consider what's coming........ then you hold a different view of risk than I do. And, that's totally fair...... people will view risk very differently, depending on their past knowledge and experiences.

I like to know the weakness and failure points in any tech that I'm using...... regardless of whether it's a high-end engineering tool, or a hammer. I am self-aware enough to know that in terms of the mass-market, I don't exist .

This thread has been fun (seriously)...... I started it to kick around the pro/cons of what's coming, and that's been well-served here.

Bling sells well, but in the rush to market (first-mover advantage et al.....), some things get neglected....... here is a current example, with high-end aftermarket car alarms.....


Security holes found in big brand car alarms - BBC News

Security expert Professor Alan Woodward from the University of Surrey's Centre for Cyber-Security said it was "disappointing" to see relatively simple flaws introduced by companies in the business of security.

"You would have thought any company claiming security as their core business would have done a thorough penetration test on the system as a whole," he said. "It's hard not to conclude that it was not done here."

He added: "The problems were within the direct control of the company. I fear that security researchers are yet again the only ones holding these manufacturers to account."

Prof Woodward said it had become a trend for companies to spend a great deal of time on the "front end" of the apps that users see, but pay less attention to the "back end" which leaves the programmes open to security flaws.

"It should be the companies paying for this, not researchers doing it as a sideline," he said.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Golly Gee, Ya better go tell Musk about regression testing.

FAA and Boeing are corrupt, that is not a technical problem, its solution is far simpler.
Implementation of the solution will be mired in doublespeak.

I'm sure Elon knows about regression testing, But, First Mover beats everything.... been that way for a long time......

About your second paragraph, President Eisenhower summed it up well, just as he was leaving office.....

Fate - could be anything, but if your car is older, and still has its original crank position sensor, occasional long-crank is sometimes just the sensor getting tired.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

People do the wrong thing all the time.
Where I live hitting a deer in the road is common - and the insurance people make it plain - HIT the deer. NO NOT swerve.

Why? Seems the natural reaction is to avoid hitting the deer, or anything for htat matter.

Well, if you succeed nothing happens. However, too many hit something else - a tree on the side of the road, put the car in a ditch, etc. The deer runs away. So why DID you hit the tree? Deer? Sorry...we don't see a deer. You lost control - you're a wreckless driver! Regardless it's YOUR responsibility to maintain control.

So a deer, a kid screaming in the backseat, a bee flies in the window - don't crash.

The other morning we lost power for a couple hours. It turns out a driver was trying to miss a deer and cut a 3 phase power line pole in two. That was a totalled car and a major utility repair. While the driver seemed to have been OK it could very well have been deadly for the driver as well.

Hitting Bambi still is a hard thing for some to do.

 

[rd_macgregor]

BTW every road going vehicle we owned in past 30 years, including kids cars had a collision with a deer and countless close calls. Our son hit a deer on a motorcycle in the middle of the town.

What is the world coming to? It was bad enough when the deer just dashed out in front of your car. Now they are riding motorcycles recklessly, too!

 

[k0ua]

I think we need a law to limit what size motorcycles that deer can operate. I think 90cc should be the maximum.


Actually what I think we need to do is for a lot more people to get busy during deer season and "thin the herd". We all have way too many deer running around in our suburbs. I know there are way too many around me.

 

[3930dave]

I knew about the general issues with Li, but this page has some specific #'s and info

Charging Batteries at High and Low Temperatures – Battery University

That ^ is a Don't Care, if you never deal with Cold, but worth considering if you do....

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I knew about the general issues with Li, but this page has some specific #'s and info

Charging Batteries at High and Low Temperatures Battery University

That ^ is a Don't Care, if you never deal with Cold, but worth considering if you do....

Rgds, D.

Awesome info. I did not know to NOT charge if temps are at or below the freezing point of water.

 

[cqaigy2]

I think we need a law to limit what size motorcycles that deer can operate. I think 90cc should be the maximum.


Actually what I think we need to do is for a lot more people to get busy during deer season and "thin the herd". We all have way too many deer running around in our suburbs. I know there are way too many around me.

Obviously, the deer aren't crossing at their allotted locations.

 

[3930dave]

Obviously, the deer aren't crossing at their allotted locations.

People have called Hwy Depts to complain about where they locate the deer crossing signs......

Gotta admit..... pretty good argument for driverless cars right there ^.......

But, a quick tour of the web shows today's Dless cars don't do that well with deer.

Better solutions cost money; this is some of what was done in Ontario....

Ontario builds first bridge for animals near Sudbury | CBC News

Wildlife Monitoring (Highway 69 Large Animals) | eco-kare international

Better roads through technology, albeit just basic Civil Eng tech.....

Not surprised deer used the overpass, given how they like to run ridges......

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Awesome info. I did not know to NOT charge if temps are at or below the freezing point of water.

Guys up here learned pretty quick.... dead 'o Winter, don't leave the Li packs in the truck overnight, unless you wanted an excuse for not starting on time next morning..... Even if fully charged, capacity is down significantly at cold temps.

A decent Li battery/charge system should be fully temperature controlled; not sure about cheapo versions.

So, a good charger will protect the Li pack at low temps, but you are still left with a temporarily non-usable battery. You can toss a tool pack into a running truck to warm up....... larger items...... Hmmmmm :scratchchin:

Rgds, D.

 

[Reg]

I think the more realistic scenario may be that you come home from work and plug in for an evening/night charge.
The battery is WARM, since it has just got you home.
BATTERY temperature matters more than ambient temp.

Sitting outside my workplace for 9 or 10 hours ?
It RARELY gets to -20 C by late evening, so not something I would worry about.

Yes, gasoline powered vehicles are less efficient in colder weather too,.

 

[3930dave]

I think the more realistic scenario may be that you come home from work and plug in for an evening/night charge.
The battery is WARM, since it has just got you home.
BATTERY temperature matters more than ambient temp.

Sitting outside my workplace for 9 or 10 hours ?
It RARELY gets to -20 C by late evening, so not something I would worry about.

Yes, gasoline powered vehicles are less efficient in colder weather too,.

Points understood, and already widely known........ BATTERY temperature is what matters....... so pay attention when there is no heat-exchanger on the battery system, as not all EVs have them.

It's a matter of dependencies...... I can much easier prepare an ICE vehicle for situations like this.....

2, hydro customers still without power but ‘things are improving,’ Rob Ford says | Globalnews.ca

......than an EV. It would be interesting to see how many EV'ers are capable of charging at home, grid-down.

Losses from snow-tires and plowing through snow/spinning tires affect all vehicles. Anyone who has spent a Winter in Canada is well aware how fuel mileage decreases with an ICE vehicle. Despite my govts best efforts to make driving un-affordable, I can compensate for that, so long as my money holds out. Worst comes to worse, I can carry extra 5 gallon cans of fuel with me - something I do traveling in remote areas, even during good weather.

Many EVs are not tow-rated, and even the ones that are can't tow a cable reel big enough to plug in to high-power 220 once ranged out.......

Dependencies........ I may drive an EV one day, locally; beyond that, I'll have a generator with me.

Rgds, D.

 

[k0ua]

Obviously, the deer aren't crossing at their allotted locations.

I am not certain they can even read the road signs. Of course it does have the pictograph,.. They should be able to figure it out....

 

[cqaigy2]

I am not certain they can even read the road signs. Of course it does have the pictograph,.. They should be able to figure it out....

The cars or the "drivers"?