Dreaded Safe Mode Is Back

[JimR]

Yesterday i was out using the tractor. It was running great until I parked it. The motor went from 1600 rpm's to an idle all by itself. Previously I had this similar problem where the tractor would do this. I was able to still run the tractor up to 2000 rpm's before the engine light would come on. That all went away after checking all the wires and cleaning the front 02 sensor in the cat converter. Back then I had just over 300 hours on the tractor. I now have 345 and it is back again but worse this time. Now I can only get the motor up to 1600 rpm's before the CEL come son and the rpm's drop to an idle. I ran the regen cycle and nothing changed. One thing that I did notice is that the regen light does not come on during the regen cycle. Is this normal? The motor runs at 2500 rpm's during regen with no issues. I positively know that the problem is not fuel related. It is raining here today so I won't be able to do any checking on the problem. What a PITA these Gen 4 tractors can be. One thing I have to admit is that I do not miss the smell of diesel exhaust fumes.

 

[DieselBound]

Almost sounds like a regen-completed bit isn't being set in the ECU.

Doubt that it'll do anything, but perhaps disconnect the battery cables for a bit and then reconnect: I've heard it mentioned to (on other equipment) touch the battery cables together (no battery involved!) as some way to ward off the evil spirits (something to do with helping discharge).

 

[JimR]

Almost sounds like a regen-completed bit isn't being set in the ECU.

Doubt that it'll do anything, but perhaps disconnect the battery cables for a bit and then reconnect: I've heard it mentioned to (on other equipment) touch the battery cables together (no battery involved!) as some way to ward off the evil spirits (something to do with helping discharge).

I don't know if the regen light is supposed to come on when driver initialized. I'll have to read the manual.
I did that the cable trick the last time around and it didn't do anything.

 

[Coyote machine]

I'd check with your selling dealer if there is a flash upgrade to your ECM or similar. Tier4 final; PITA for sure. See if there is a tweak, or does one have to only start it in 'safe mode' with limited icons/functions?!:confused2::confused3:
Good luck, post back results/findings...

 

[JimR]

I bought this far far away on a leftover closeout. I saw a sticker on the frame that said it had an ECM upgrade. I believe that the sticker is under my frame mounted winch bracket. I will let everyone know what I find out on this issue. When it is running great, I love it. This is the second time in a few months that this has happened.

 

[JimR]

Does anyone know if you can jump two terminals on the OBDII connector to bring up the CEL code? I know on many cars that you can jump #4 and #9 and the codes will flash using the CEL light.

 

[JimR]

I checked all the wire connections, unhooked the battery and ran the regen cycle again. The only difference is now the motor will not go up in rpm's over 1100. Time to bring it in for warranty work. This really stinks.

 

[Coyote machine]

Have you spoken to your dealer about what you can do before shipping it?
There has to be a way to check the 'code' before having to trailer it cross country?!

And, with the recent right to repair law being won by the consumer, changes to the 'secrets' the manufacturers hold as a way to drag machines to the dealers, with no one but the dealer being able to 'touch the electronics/computer's coding' you might have a chance to figure out what makes the system function...
Good luck.

 

[JimR]

There is a local dealer that will do the warranty work on it. The problem with reading a Kioti code is that you need a $700.00 reader and a usage fee to be able to use it. To me this is a joke. I need to call a friend with a trailer or just rent a UHaul trailer. That would be cheaper than having the dealer pick it up and bringing it back.

 

[RandyT]

There is a local dealer that will do the warranty work on it. The problem with reading a Kioti code is that you need a $700.00 reader and a usage fee to be able to use it. To me this is a joke. I need to call a friend with a trailer or just rent a UHaul trailer. That would be cheaper than having the dealer pick it up and bringing it back.

Actually all the small engine companies do the same thing. Kohler, Briggs, Honda, Kawasaki, MTD, Husqvarna, Stihl all have their own software and cables that the dealer has to purchase. And all the brands listed above have the software on the dealer only site, which even if the everyday person got the software it is still unusable because it requires the software to be registered by an authorized dealer.

 

[rhunt]

You might want to check the U-Haul trailer rating before renting one. Bob

 

[CMV]

Sorry the gremlin came back Hope they sort it out for you @ dealer quickly. My luck with intermittent stuff like that is that it runs 100% perfect at the shop or the tech is here for service call, then back to being boogered shortly thereafter.

Not a big deal, but you might want to leave the loader at home to trailer it. Gives you a few more options for the trailer. Just the tractor, loader, & loaded rears - nothing else - is overweight on my 2x 3500lbs axles utility trailer. I'm fortunate to have a friend close by with a better equipment trailer that he lets me borrow. Even at that, my F150 EcoBoost with tow package dislikes it. Does it, just can't get it parked on trailer to ride well. I'm usually only trailering 10-15 min so no big deal, but if it's a longer ride might be well worth leaving the loader behind.

Just curious.....you said ...at 1600 rpm. Do you typically run that low? Just wondering since I've read here that tier4 engines need to be run at high rpm all the time. I do same and try to be at min rpm to do the work just to cut down on noise, but generally stay at least 2000+ because my ignorance of the DPF filter and that system as a whole has me scared of breaking it prematurely from running at lower rpm. I *think* the low rpm leads to more frequent regen cycles which leads to shorter DPF filter service life. But no idea if there is other harm caused by running at lower rpm as the norm

 

[DieselBound]

I was cursing having to pay to have my tractor transported, but after recently shuttling it back and forth myself I'm not sure that it's worth doing myself.


An hour's drive each way. Securing the tractor takes a fair amount of time: used seven straps, one for the front of the loader. 94 Ram/Cummins 12v that's basically stock and it was about as much as it wanted to handle: I've got it on my radar to install a power-holding clutch and tweak the power up. Trailer is 16 1/2'. Balance was excellent: I guessed it on the first shot. QA rested right in the channel at the back end of the trailer, providing another sort of anchoring. Have a couple of hills to climb. Wanting to say that it cost me something like $130 when I last had the dealer haul it: driver got caught up in a massive traffic jam, which ate up their time and not mine.

 

[JimR]

You might want to check the U-Haul trailer rating before renting one. Bob

I already have and used one to haul it 1250 miles home with no issues.

 

[JimR]

Sorry the gremlin came back Hope they sort it out for you @ dealer quickly. My luck with intermittent stuff like that is that it runs 100% perfect at the shop or the tech is here for service call, then back to being boogered shortly thereafter.

Not a big deal, but you might want to leave the loader at home to trailer it. Gives you a few more options for the trailer. Just the tractor, loader, & loaded rears - nothing else - is overweight on my 2x 3500lbs axles utility trailer. I'm fortunate to have a friend close by with a better equipment trailer that he lets me borrow. Even at that, my F150 EcoBoost with tow package dislikes it. Does it, just can't get it parked on trailer to ride well. I'm usually only trailering 10-15 min so no big deal, but if it's a longer ride might be well worth leaving the loader behind.

Just curious.....you said ...at 1600 rpm. Do you typically run that low? Just wondering since I've read here that tier4 engines need to be run at high rpm all the time. I do same and try to be at min rpm to do the work just to cut down on noise, but generally stay at least 2000+ because my ignorance of the DPF filter and that system as a whole has me scared of breaking it prematurely from running at lower rpm. I *think* the low rpm leads to more frequent regen cycles which leads to shorter DPF filter service life. But no idea if there is other harm caused by running at lower rpm as the norm

I run around 1600 when I am just travelling around, not working the tractor. I crank it up over 2000 when putting a load on it and run at PTO speed when using any attachment off the PTO. The dealer I bought this from loaded the trailer with the tractor bucket facing the rear. He pulled forward on the trailer just until the back of my Ram 2500 started to drop a little bit. He then said "tie her down good".

 

[Coyote machine]

I run around 1600 when I am just travelling around, not working the tractor. I crank it up over 2000 when putting a load on it and run at PTO speed when using any attachment off the PTO. The dealer I bought this from loaded the trailer with the tractor bucket facing the rear. He pulled forward on the trailer just until the back of my Ram 2500 started to drop a little bit. He then said "tie her down good".

Tier 4 final tractors do want higher RPMs to run all the time, is what my dealer told me when we were discussing the issues with all the emissions stuff. You might want to bump it up closer to 2K all the time- it won't hurt it, but it could keep it from acting up and causing you problems.
Basically to burn clean you have to burn more fuel. That's the crazy way the new ones are designed. Can't have particulate pollution, and we must be good Americans and find then burn more oil! Trump wants to open up Alaska to drill, baby drill! YIKES!
Good luck.

 

[JimR]

Tier 4 final tractors do want higher RPMs to run all the time, is what my dealer told me when we were discussing the issues with all the emissions stuff. You might want to bump it up closer to 2K all the time- it won't hurt it, but it could keep it from acting up and causing you problems.
Basically to burn clean you have to burn more fuel. That's the crazy way the new ones are designed. Can't have particulate pollution, and we must be good Americans and find then burn more oil! Trump wants to open up Alaska to drill, baby drill! YIKES!
Good luck.

I pulled both 02 sensors today and they are clean as could be. I have a friend lending me his trailer this weekend to drop it off. My tractor does not smoke at all and is never lugged under a heavy load. The exhaust never stinks on it. I did check the terminals again on the ECM. They are clean and watertight. Whatever is going on, I believe that it is electrical.

 

[Coyote machine]

I pulled both 02 sensors today and they are clean as could be. I have a friend lending me his trailer this weekend to drop it off. My tractor does not smoke at all and is never lugged under a heavy load. The exhaust never stinks on it. I did check the terminals again on the ECM. They are clean and watertight. Whatever is going on, I believe that it is electrical.

I wouldn't expect the O2 sensors to be fouled, nor for the tractor to smoke, or for there to be any odor from the exhaust. I tend to agree with you, that the cause is more likely a electrical issue, of an intermittent type controlled/read by the ECM and possibly related to a temp sensor or similar item that may trigger the ECM to function as it appears to do currently, and when it is not fixing itself. Though it may have had a flash upgrade, it may not have taken. You know, bought with ver 1.0, updated to 2.0, now may need 3.0 or higher tweak to get it right.
All this stuff is new to diesel tractors for the most part. Similar to cars from the early 70's where there was a LOT of tweaking to anti pollution devices. Remember air pumps- just about every car with one ended up with it's belt removed....
Cross fingers....

Since you have to drag it 1200! miles, one way, is there no MA dealer you could work with in your area? It seems absurd to have to go that distance for a problem that could, unfortunately, (take a few dealer trips before being fixed permanently?) I'd check with your selling dealer and maybe Kioti corporate before hauling and see if they can work out a satisfactory situation. It's probably a parts swapping deal at this point; not like having to split it to replace a leaking HST or a real time consuming operation. And any dealer can read a code machine and swap in a known good part...

 

[JimR]

I wouldn't expect the O2 sensors to be fouled, nor for the tractor to smoke, or for there to be any odor from the exhaust. I tend to agree with you, that the cause is more likely a electrical issue, of an intermittent type controlled/read by the ECM and possibly related to a temp sensor or similar item that may trigger the ECM to function as it appears to do currently, and when it is not fixing itself. Though it may have had a flash upgrade, it may not have taken. You know, bought with ver 1.0, updated to 2.0, now may need 3.0 or higher tweak to get it right.
All this stuff is new to diesel tractors for the most part. Similar to cars from the early 70's where there was a LOT of tweaking to anti pollution devices. Remember air pumps- just about every car with one ended up with it's belt removed....
Cross fingers....

Since you have to drag it 1200! miles, one way, is there no MA dealer you could work with in your area? It seems absurd to have to go that distance for a problem that could, unfortunately, (take a few dealer trips before being fixed permanently?) I'd check with your selling dealer and maybe Kioti corporate before hauling and see if they can work out a satisfactory situation. It's probably a parts swapping deal at this point; not like having to split it to replace a leaking HST or a real time consuming operation. And any dealer can read a code machine and swap in a known good part...

It is possible that it needs a ECM update. Having worked on cars for most of my life I think the issue is one of these, a failed ECM, bad wiring harness, bad sensor, mass air flow or throttle potentiometer. I will be bringing the tractor to my "local" dealer. I would never haul this 1250 miles to where I bought it. I also have two other dealers in NH that said that they will be happy to work on it if need be. I did my research before buying this to make sure that I could find a local dealer to cover the warranty work. Kioti has told me that if I have any issues with getting warranty work done to let them know.

 

[Coyote machine]

Glad to hear you can get it done locally. Yeah, they have taken tractors from very simple to bogged down with massive control systems that serve the EPA's agenda and dealer parts and service departments to no consumer's benefit. All the pre-Tier 4 final tractors were snapped up before the new ones rolled out, due to no-one wanting to deal with the potential issues on the horizon.
Kioti will get your's fixed, it may take persistence on your part to get it done in a timely manner. Hopefully not. :confused3: