DK40 cranking but not starting

[bullebak]

Yesterday I was happily spraying 200l of noxious weed poison and decided to take a break halfway. But on return it refused to start. Parked in the middle of the driveway (slighty downhill) blocking all traffic.

I was thinking of towing the tractor with my car (to near the shed), but I think the tractor will be pulling the car down the hill instead...

Crankshaft turning, engine not starting.
Fuel in tank.
Glowplugs appear to be working normally.

I have a service manual, and intend to check out the fuel delivery today, but I am not experienced with this.

Anyone can give me a hint where to start looking?

Thanks,
Tony.

 

[ericm979]

Safety switches have been known to go bad on other makes. Common locations are clutch (if your tractor has one) and under the seat. Sometimes wiring gets pulled out by brush.

 

[Spanner]

How have you determined if the Glow Plugs are "working normally"?

When cranking the engine are you seeing white smoke from the exhaust? Or no smoke?? (No smoke - No fuel delivery.)

Is the engine rotating at a sufficient speed for combustion? Slow cranking (Weak battery, weak starter, ??) will cause a 'No start' symptom.

 

[bullebak]

How have you determined if the Glow Plugs are "working normally"?

When cranking the engine are you seeing white smoke from the exhaust? Or no smoke?? (No smoke - No fuel delivery.)

Is the engine rotating at a sufficient speed for combustion? Slow cranking (Weak battery, weak starter, ??) will cause a 'No start' symptom.

Glow Plugs indicator light works as per normal.
Normal healthy cranking, no smoke, no firing, looks likes no fuel delivery.

PS:
Today the car pulled the tractor to a more servicable spot (usually its the other way around...). Had a good look for anything obvious but nothing suspicious to be seen. Still won't fire up.

 

[LouNY]

What type of engine stop does that have?
A pull cable, has it slipped and not returning to the run position?
Electrical solenoid, is it activating and moving the fuel stop?

 

[RSKY]

I had the same problem with my CK20. Cost me a couple hundred dollars for the dealer to come and get it, diagnose the problem, and replace a $0.53 fuse. Check your fuse box.

RSKY

 

[rd_macgregor]

My 2006 DK45 stripped some gears in the injector pump...likely the most expensive of the several possible causes of your non-starting issue. You can hope it is a bad solenoid, blown fuse or even a clogged filter!

 

[bullebak]

My 2006 DK45 stripped some gears in the injector pump...likely the most expensive of the several possible causes of your non-starting issue. You can hope it is a bad solenoid, blown fuse or even a clogged filter!

STUDYING THE SERVICE MANUL
None of the fuel delivery components appear to be powered electrically, and no fuse is mentioned related to this.

Flow looks to be in the following order:

1. Fuel Tank
2. Fuel Feed Pump (7 on the diagram)
3. Fuel Filter (2 on the diagram)
4. Injection Pump (3 on the diagram)
5. Injection Pipes (4 on the diagram)
6. Injection Nozzles (5 on the diagram)
7. Fuel Overflow Pipe back to Fuel Tank (6 on the diagram)

(Diagram attached - see page 2-15)

Q1: If I disconnect the fuel pipe from the fuel filter (or remove the filter element), should fuel be flowing out during cranking?
Q2: Disconnecting the fuel pipe or removing filter element would surely introduce air into the fuel system?

If no flow, the prime suspect would be Fuel Feed Pump.


Have to do this outside in the sun at +40c, so preparing as best as I can

 

[ericm979]

The fuel feed pump is a low pressure pump that pulls fuel from the tank and sends it to the injection pump.
Yours is mechanical. Some are electric. If it's failed your engine would not start. Seems unlikely given the symptoms of running fine until being shut down. But your test to check for fuel flowing would check it. Is there a troubleshooting section of the manual?

Your filter seems to have an automatic air return to the tank. On my tractors there's been a manual air bleed screw. Air in the fuel system would cause the tractor to not run, or run poorly if it's in only one or two cylinder lines.

 

[Dave M7040]

This situation will turn out to be something simple. Don't go tearing things apart looking for ghosts as you will cause far more problems than you solve.

Last page in the engine manual. Lever 19. Make certain it is moving in the Off and On positions. Cables have been known to slip and then not push lever 19 to the On position.

The mechanical lift pump on your tractor may be there to deal with low fuel levels in the fuel tank and going up or down hills. In all other circumstances, gravity delivers fuel to the injection pump.

Is part of your fuel tank above the level of the injection pump?

It may be that your fuel level was marginal for needing the lift pump with fuel sloshing around and getting sucked up. Once you stopped the tractor the level became to low to get a re start.

There is usually a lever or button on the lift pump to allow you to operate it manually to prime the filer and lines up to the injection pump.

Fill the fuel tank completely. Remove the intake line at the injection pump and see if a steady flow of fuel comes out just sitting with no cranking. If no fuel comes out, see if there is a manual way to operate the lift pump. If there is, then pump and see if now fuel comes out the line feeding the injection pump.

If there is fuel to the injection pump, then either lever 19 is not in the correct position or your system is full of air and needs to be bleed.

It is not a safety switch problem as the engine is cranking. Further, lever 19 is manually operated not controlled by an engine stop solenoid. This is not electrical!

Dave M7040

 

[bullebak]

Continued... (see attached photos and drawings)

Comparing actual photos of the engine (taken today) with the drawings in the Manual, I just cannot reconcile them, and leaves me wondering if the drawings relate to the same engine.

Photo 2 shows two levers, but neither looks identical to Lever 19 in the drawing.

When I stopped the engine last, the fuel was low but not lower than usual before refilling. I did top up the fuel, sofar no go.

>>> Is part of your fuel tank above the level of the injection pump?

I'll need to take another look for that.


Photo 2: Shows both Levers.

Photo 3: Shows that it does not always rests on the minimim idle position. Should there be an external spring?

Photo 4: I have no idea what that lever is for. There is no external spring attached but is does return to the position shown.


Will do the flow testing tomorrow.

 

[rd_macgregor]

I thought there was a solenoid-operated fuel valve that shut off the flow when the ignition key was off and allowed fuel flow when it was on. If not, then what causes the engine to stop when the ignition key is turned off?

 

[ericm979]

On my old Kubota B7100 you pulled the throttle lever down to idle, then past idle against a stiffer spring to stop the engine.
Turning the key to off just turned off the electrical system, the engine would keep running.

Have you tried filling the fuel tank?

 

[GMIslander]

There is a 10A fuse labeled "alternator/engine stop".
It is located fifth slot down on the fuse block located right side below the steering column.

Right is pre 2007 left after May 2007

View attachment fuel solenoid.pdf

In your pics you can see the fuel shut off solenoid is pre 2007.

 

[bullebak]

There is a 10A fuse labeled "alternator/engine stop".
It is located fifth slot down on the fuse block located right side below the steering column.

Right is pre 2007 left after May 2007

View attachment 529576

In your pics you can see the fuel shut off solenoid is pre 2007.

Hi GMIslander,

I visited the tractor today but could not stay long. However, I did notice the solenoid you referred to, thanks very much.

I checked all the fuses in the fuse box, but none are open. There is none labelled "alternator/engine stop".

Next will check for voltage on the solenoid terminal. It's hard to unplug as there is no 'service loop' in the wiring... all tight. Bad idea which can easily cause an internal break over time. There are two wires leading to the plug so I assume it's a single coil which should be powered during normal engine running.

The electrical diagram talks of a timer relay and appears to be related to this (but unclear), but when I turn the ignition off there never was a delay between that and the engine stopping.

Hope to be able to determine the solenoid status tomorrow.

 

[CS2210]

my father in-law had this problem with his DK45se and it turned out to be a relay on the firewall that unplugged. He plugged it back in and put a zip tie around it, problem solved. I hope your problem turns out to be something easy and inexpensive for you.
Travis

 

[Dave M7040]

It is wrong to assume that the name Engine Stop solenoid is doing what it says.

I learned my mistaken understanding recently on a Kubota whose injection pump looked a lot like yours.

After I made the statement which turned out to be wrong, I studied the wiring diagram and to my surprise the solenoid actually enabled the engine to start when powered up.
Regardless of what it is doing, all these solenoids have two winding's inside. A pull in winding and a hold winding. The pull in is only powered briefly to move the hardware and then the hold coil takes over.

It is most unfortunate that Kioti does not make available parts diagrams and more. Every search I make says go back to your dealer. Kubota on the other hand has a wealth of on line info readily available.

The two wires going to your engine solenoid should have power present in one circuit when the key switch is on and on the second one also when cranking. The ground path is through the injection pump body.

This is the material regarding the Kubota.

I was wrong in stating the solenoids job is to stop the engine. Just the opposite

I have studied and marked up one model's starting system wiring.

The red line is 12 volts direct from the battery, through a fuse #6 to the open contacts in the engine stop relay. This is power waiting to be switched on at which point battery power flows through the blue marked circuit to to the left hand coil in the engine stop solenoid.

Turning the key to Acc, On, or start positions sends power through the yellow marked circuit through fuse #8. This circuit does two actions. It closes the relay contacts by powering the small coil in the relay and now battery direct 12 volts is going to the engine stop solenoid LH coil through the blue marked circuit. The second action is to provide 12 volt power from the key switch to the right hand coil in the engine stop solenoid.

Would you have as test light like this one?

I do not believe the voltage to the engine stop solenoid changes. The pull in power of the two coils in the solenoid itself is different but both coils see the same 12 nominal volts.

From memory, you do not find any sign of 12 volt power on either of the two wires to the engine stop solenoid. This means that either two fuses are blown, #6 and #8 or there is a problem in the key switch

Can you please give me more specifics about your tractor so I can study the correct wiring diagram.

This wsm material shows battery voltage sent to both solenoid circuits

This formal check of the relay may identify if there is a wiring problem. Squirrel chewed etc.

Dave

 

[bullebak]

Hi Dave,

Just a chat before visiting the tractor again today. Thanks heaps for your at-length description, will study after breakfast , then visit tractor again (10km from where I live at present). Yesterday's visit included borrowing a neighbour's solar panel connecting to the battery to avoid the battery from becoming too discharged with all the cranking.

Statements by the manufacturer to 'go back to your dealer' is not helpful, especially when the dealer insists to bring the tractor to their workshop 50km away, or quote $500 for them to transport it.

If ever I buy another tractor, will do my homework first in terms of proper service support and service manuals. Being sold a defective replacement keyswitch (as was indeed the case) doesn't help also (the packing looked unopened, so looks like bad/no quality control at time of manufacture).

Wiring to the alternator has also always been tight, placing stress on the wires (same as the solenoid as earlier mentioned). I am not impressed.

If we have to contact the dealer (or service agent) for every time something goes wrong, we won't be left with anything.

This comes immediately after spending months of problems with battery charging (which eventually turned out to be the faulty replacement keyswitch - see other thread). I am now the proud owner of a perfectly good spare alternator - lol.

The keyswitch, solenoid and relay are now the prime suspects. Back later.

Tony

 

[ericm979]

I think the engine stop solenoid stops fuel flow when it's not energized. On my Branson it's energized when the key is in the on position. Doing it this way is safer- if the solenoid or the circuit to it fails the tractor stops running (or won't start). If it was energized to shut off the fuel flow a failure would mean you could not turn the engine off. The Branson manual says that it's difficult to hear the solenoid move. This is a Bosch pump which is different from yours but it may be hard to hear yours move too.

The lever on the fuel injection pump that's not connected to anything is probably the mechanical engine stop lever. The Branson manual warns that if it's in the wrong position the engine won't make full power. If you happened to mess with it, it could be part of the problem. I don't think it can get into the stop position on its own. This seems like an electrical problem but I thought I'd mention it.

The Branson (Bosch) stop solenoid has 7.4 ohms resistance and draws 2 amps when the key is on.

 

[bullebak]

I think the engine stop solenoid stops fuel flow when it's not energized. On my Branson it's energized when the key is in the on position. Doing it this way is safer- if the solenoid or the circuit to it fails the tractor stops running (or won't start). If it was energized to shut off the fuel flow a failure would mean you could not turn the engine off. The Branson manual says that it's difficult to hear the solenoid move. This is a Bosch pump which is different from yours but it may be hard to hear yours move too.

The lever on the fuel injection pump that's not connected to anything is probably the mechanical engine stop lever. The Branson manual warns that if it's in the wrong position the engine won't make full power. If you happened to mess with it, it could be part of the problem. I don't think it can get into the stop position on its own. This seems like an electrical problem but I thought I'd mention it.

The Branson (Bosch) stop solenoid has 7.4 ohms resistance and draws 2 amps when the key is on.

That makes perfect sense, for a solenoid to remain activated for the engine to operate. It also explains why the engine stops when the battery goes flat (instead of dieseling on).

Today I visited my poor tractor and made the following observations regarding the solenoid (freed up the wires and disconnected plug, voltages are between ground and Red/Blue wires):

Key Switch	Red wire	Blue wire
Off	0V	0V
Acc	0V	0V
On	12.5V	0V
Start	12.5V	0V

No voltage was observed on the blue wire in any position. Cannot find any further information on that solenoid and wiring diagram. Clearly the diagram I have is misleading.

Next I took off the top cover to locate the relay which is in my Owner's Manual referred to as 'THE POWER OF TIMER RELAY', which may or may not be the same as 'Alternator/Engine Stop'. This manual contains no further reference to such relay itself, and the ink on the relay labels is unreadable.

More day after tomorrow...

PS:
Dave, I use a Multimeter to measure voltages.