Diesel Pickups

[cp1969]

Been reading about the new 6.4 Powerstroke.

Talk about having to sift through the chaff to find the wheat...you can find everything from statements saying it is an International engine to it being a Ford designed and built engine. Also horror stories about having to remove the cab from the frame to do things like remove the turbo. I have no idea how much, if any, of this is true.

But it got me to thinking, first about the sad state that Ford Motor Company is in and second, what would happen to the diesel truck market if Ford should happen to find itself belly-up in the hot sun.

That made me wonder why Peterbilt or Kenworth has not entered the diesel pickup market. It doesn't make a lot of sense from a practical point of view, but practicality doesn't always rule the day when it comes to boys buying toys.

How many would consider a $50K, 1-ton dually pickup made by Pete or KW, with a Cat 7.2 liter inline 6 diesel tuned for a pickup application with an Allison or Allison-clone transmission (or manual)? Think they'd sell any?

I would have done this as a poll, but don't remember how to do that.

 

[Z-Michigan]

How many would consider a $50K, 1-ton dually pickup made by Pete or KW, with a Cat 7.2 liter inline 6 diesel tuned for a pickup application with an Allison or Allison-clone transmission (or manual)? Think they'd sell any?

I would buy this quickly but I can't imagine that sort of thing selling for $50k. Ever heard of the International CXT? It's basically what you propose, though bigger, and they are somewhere over $100k.

 

[cp1969]

Yeah, I might be low. I'm not talking about those enormous things, like the Monroe-GM thing. Just a normal, 1-ton dually.

 

[beagdog]

The new F-450 pickup easily tops $55,000 in MSRP, and this is a truck that is being built in Ford's established assembly plant using the same body parts as the other SuperDuty lines. I think you would be easily exceeding $75,000.00 for Paccar to even try to market something comparable. I also think it would sell out any level of production they could muster. Especially with Cat power.

 

[IH250]

I think all brands are pricing there diesel pickups out of sight.Its getting harder for me and probably alot of others to justify the cost.I have a 2006 250 4x4 with the 5.4 and its plenty for what I do but the V 10 was only 600 more and from what I have read its a real powerhouse for towing.The diesel option is what, about 6 grand now thats crazy.People are claiming about 11-12 with the V10 unloaded I only get 14 with the V8.Unless you tow alot why would anyone want the diesel, here in screw york diesel is more than reg unleaded and now the headaches with ulsd not worth it for 6 grand.

 

[beagdog]

I bought my '05 F-350 SRW late in '04 and seriously considered the V-10. I have regretted not going with it ever since. The incentives that have been offered on Ford trucks since I bought mine as well as Fords unique way of changing model years 3 times in 2 years have cost me nearly 50% depreciation in just over 2 years.

I will never again buy a diesel truck for my uses, if I ever decide to just suck it up and take the hit on this one. Diesel will never be cheaper than gas again and the fuel mileage because of all the emissions standards mean the fuel mileage difference between gas and diesel is non-existant for most users.

I've owned Ford diesel pickups since 1984, but this will be my last, and probably my last Ford truck of any kind, they just don't get it anymore.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I think in fairness to the big 3 that the diesel engines really do cost A LOT more to make than their gas V8 and V10 engines, especially with the 2007 emissions requirements. Couple that with a big step in torque that requires a bigger transmission and I think the price premium of $6000-10,000 is based in reality. (Ignoring the fact that all big pickups represent something like $10,000 in basic profit per unit!)

I am the happy owner of a 2006 Ram 2500 with the Cummins. It cost a lot up front, but we get 14-16mpg in local driving, 18-19mpg on the highway without a trailer, and 13-15mpg on the highway with a loaded 3-horse slant trailer. Everything I've read tells me we would lose about 5mpg on each of those with a gas engine. Perhaps more importantly, we can go up a steep grade at 70mph in cruise control with a 7000lb trailer and it doesn't even feel like it's straining. I don't think the V10 engines will do that. We'll have to keep the truck a long time to make up the cost difference, but I am quite happy with it. It's nice being able to go 400 miles between fuel stops when you have an anxious horse in a trailer that's 30ft long.

I also met a guy with a 2004 or 05 Ford Excursion with the diesel who told me he gets 20-22mpg in regular driving. Compare that to about 9mpg for an Excursion with the V10.

By the way, GM actually has a website trying to sell heavy-duty truck customers on gas engines, based on their lower up-front cost and the lengthy time to get a financial payback on current diesels. I don't remember the address but you might look it up (it's something like "choose gas"). When I was last there they were giving away free mugs just for filling in your info.

 

[beagdog]

I also met a guy with a 2004 or 05 Ford Excursion with the diesel who told me he gets 20-22mpg in regular driving. Compare that to about 9mpg for an Excursion with the V10.

QUOTE]

I'm in no way unhappy with either of my 6.0 diesels, but I don't care for Fords way of screwing up the resale of their vehicles by changing model years every 6 to 8 months. The value just isn't there anymore.

I also have an '04 Excursion, with a 6.0 and I am very pleased with the mileage it delivers, but, unless the one you saw was chipped, he's not seeing that kind of mileage out of a 6.0. Mine will do 18 all day at 70, but you won't see 20-22 unless you're running 60 with a tailwind.

I had 7.3's in both an F-350 SRW and an '01 Excursion, and they would both do about 2 mpg better than the 6.0s in exactly the same vehicles. I'm sure the emission controls have a lot to do with that.

 

[Marlowe]

I've got a Ford 1999 with a V10. People ask me all the time about the gas mileage. I remind them that I didn't buy a V10 to get mileage. I bought it to tow and haul heavy stuff, and it does that very well. I've also got a diesel pickup. It's a 1986 Isuzu. Now we are talking mileage. That little pickup gets an honest 40mpg and is as reliable as sunrise, but I drive the Ford. There's more to life than mileage, and the Ford's never let me down either.

 

[TwinCreek]

I have a 2005 F350 Lariat, crew cab, dually, fully loaded. Paid around $50,000 and it has left me stranded over 1,000 miles from home three times. The bad part is that I was towing a 10,000lb trailer each time and pure luck was the only reason people didn't die. Ford has absolutely ignored the problem and continues to refuse to fix the truck. They forced me into filing a lemon law suit. This is definitely the last Ford I will ever buy.

I have been researching the 2.5 ton trucks and would gladly pay $75k for a full crew cab with a cummings or cat motor.

As far as I'm concerned, Ford can fall into their grave tonight and I will cheer.

 

[cp1969]

Guys, can I gently steer this back on topic? The question was, "What about a KW or Pete 1-ton dually with a Cat engine... Would it sell?"

Sorry, I'm probably the worst thread hijacker on this board. What irony...

 

[beagdog]

The new F-450 pickup easily tops $55,000 in MSRP, and this is a truck that is being built in Ford's established assembly plant using the same body parts as the other SuperDuty lines. I think you would be easily exceeding $75,000.00 for Paccar to even try to market something comparable. I also think it would sell out any level of production they could muster. Especially with Cat power.

There is no doubt that it would, even at $75,000.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Obviously, the same problems besetting the trucking industry are affecting the pickup segment. Nearing 200k on my 97' Dodge, I don't think I would buy another diesel pickup if it was going to be my daily driver as well as this one has been.

No doubt a diesel will outperform a gasser under continuous duty. If that is what you need and you have the money then go for it if not, you are only feeding your ego by buying a diesel if you then need to whine about the cost of ownership.

The trend to need and want heavier and more expensive trucks is obvious. I think people who need more pulling power would be better off forgoing the fancy 4x4 and buying used commercial class 6 or 7 trucks.

 

[Kendall69]

You can always get a Ford with a Cummins engine, but you have to buy it in Brazil and have it shipped in.

He sent me some pics of a 250 with a Cummins

And, no I don’t think KW or Pete would sell. It takes diesel buyers along time till they trust a diesel maker, and it takes a long time for people to leave a trusted diesel maker. I don’t think KW, or Pete would be patient enough to turn some loyal customers.

Even with all the Ford problem people still purchased the 6.0, those are some die hard Ford lovers.

Toyota is coming out with a truck to match the Ford 450, in a diesel. The engine is made by Hino. I have three Hino 5 ton trucks and have beat them up for over 20 years, and have only put fuel, oil, brakes, and tires in them.
Never once been to the dealer. The 2006 I just had delivered is like driving a Caddie, with a 26ft box on the back.

For me, Ford screwed me, and I didn’t have time to play their games, so I went across the street and got a Duramax Dually, and couldn’t be happier.

 

[wushaw]

A Pete or KW in a one ton chassis would still be a small motor due to the chassis ability to handle the weight. Even the small 7.2 Cat weighs 1295 lbs, not to mention the tranny that needs to handle it. That's a little too much for a pickup chassis.

 

[cp1969]

FWIW, a Cummins 5.9 weighs over 1000 lbs.

And, no I don’t think KW or Pete would sell. It takes diesel buyers along time till they trust a diesel maker, and it takes a long time for people to leave a trusted diesel maker. I don’t think KW, or Pete would be patient enough to turn some loyal customers.

Don't think Pete, KW, and Cat are trusted enough names in the business to lure truck business away from Ford/International, Dodge/Cummins, and GM/Izusu? I would have thought just the opposite...that people would desert in droves. But then again, I have NEVER understood brand loyalty.

 

[Z-Michigan]

FWIW, a Cummins 5.9 weighs over 1000 lbs.

+1

And it works great!

I don't know what the new Cummins 6.7L (tuned for 2007 emissions) weighs, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's another 100-200lbs.

 

[capt_met]

i am happy with my duramax/allison. that being said i doubt i would be interested in anything that would cost more to do the same job. a truck i would like to see would be one of the isuzu cabovers 4500/5500 with the duramax/allison combo. they seem to be geat trucks just underpowered for towing.
take care,

 

[Boomerang1]

Peterbilt and Kenworth do not make diesel engines. You can buy a Peterbilt, Kenworth or Freightliner with a Cat, Cummins or Detroit engine. They also have the same transmissions and front and rear diffs. Pete and Kenworth are basicly the same truck made by Paccar. They change the cab and the suspension.

 

[jcmseven]

cp1969,

There definitely would be a market for such a machine. Since Peterbilt and KW really seek high levels of customization in their products, I believe a pickup would be the same. For years, I heard friends of mine say "I will never pay $50K for a pickup!" and yet, I see many of them driving their King Ranch Fords, or high-level Duramax's or Cummins machines down the road, any of which can be spec'd to over this price. What is another $15-20 K in this sense, (or nonsense)? I believe putting a Caterpillar motor in any truck would make it sell, but truly, how many of us would use one to its limit? The truth is, in 2007, owning and operating a diesel pickup is NOT an exercise in frugality as it used to be. Most of us, myself included, paid a premium for an engine we do not come close to utilizing most times, but yet we still do so. Our local dealer, who sells more heavy duty trucks than any dealer in a several state area, estimates 90% of its 250 and above sales in pickups are diesels. Ford's own demographics report for the new 2008 model 6.4L indicates they expect 95% of all heavy-duty truck buyers purchasing Ford will go diesel in this line of trucks. I have a good friend who sells almost all the heavy duty pickups at this dealership and when I asked him how many of those buying actually need a diesel, his answer was, "None of them." He, himself said he would buy gas next time he purchases a pickup. Most of these diesel trucks will be over $50 K. This leads me to believe most of us (again myself included) still buy our "work trucks" with our hearts, not our heads. So, in response to your question, I think for one, there would be plenty of market for a $60-75K truck from one of those manufacturers.

John M